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 CrosstheLine
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8/23/2008 12:15:12 AM reply with quote send message to CrosstheLine Object to Post

I don't think we need the "B" locus included (as it is the locus for black/brown not black/red as you have it and that also affects the nose colour (black nose/brown nose).
The base coat of red is shown when there is either KbrKbr/Kbrk/kk at the "K" locus.
Everything else looks pretty good, but I think it might be a good idea to indicate the masking in the brindle dogs ie. Red brindle with black mask, Blue brindle with blue mask.

I think the only thing left is to decide on the names used for the colors. I am not in Cane Corsos in real life but I have been told that the fawn with blue mask is know as "formantino" sp?
I don't know if we want to go that way or not. I personally am OK with the colours as they are and the percentages are OK (with masked brindles being added accordingly). And the removal of the "B" locus as unnecessary.

Thanks a lot Maebe for getting that typed out, I know what a pain in the rump it can be.

CrosstheLine
 CrosstheLine
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8/23/2008 12:28:10 AM reply with quote send message to CrosstheLine Object to Post

quote
posted by Maebe
And as far as the percentages go, I took the info from one of the earliest posts of the breakdown of colors of the registered dogs, and modified it to fit our extended list of colors. So:

Black 24.5%
Blue 10.0%
Blue Brindle 6.25%
Red 1.25%
Red with Black Mask 1.25%
Red Brindle 7.75%
Dk Fawn 1.25%
Dk Fawn with Black Mask 1.25%
Dk Fawn Brindle 7.75%
Fawn 1.25%
Fawn with Black Mask 1.25%
Fawn Brindle 7.75%
Sand 1.25%
Sand with Blue Mask 0.5%
Sand Brindle 7.75%
Grey 1.25%
Grey with Blue Mask 0.5%
Grey Brindle 7.75%
Silver 1.25%
Silver with Blue Mask 0.5%
Silver Brindle 7.75%
TOTAL: 100%

Please feel welcome to post any comments before we submit to Jeff!

So
Black...24.5%
Blue...16.25%
Red...1.25%
Red with black mask...1.25%
Red brindle...3.75%
Red brindle with black mask...4.00%
Dk fawn...1.25%
Dk fawn with black mask...1.25%
Dk fawn brindle...3.75%
Dk fawn brindle with black mask...4.00%
Fawn...1.25%
Fawn with black mask...1.25%
Fawn brindle...3.75%
Fawn brindle with black mask...4.00%
Sand...1.25%
Sand with blue mask...0.5%
Sand brindle...3.75%
Sand brindle with blue mask...4.00%
Grey...1.25%
Grey with blue mask...0.5%
Grey brindle...3.75%
Grey brindle with blue mask...4.00%
Silver...1.25%
Silver with blue mask...0.5%
Silver brindle...3.75%
Silver brindle with blue mask...4.00%

What I did is just take the number used for the brindle and split it between brindle and brindle with mask.

CrosstheLine

ETA changed the percentage for Blue and took out Blue brindle with and without mask
 CrosstheLine
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8/23/2008 1:00:01 AM reply with quote send message to CrosstheLine Object to Post

D series
Genes: D- full pigment
d-dilute to blue

Em Series
Genes: Em- mask
E- no mask

K series
Genes: K -dominant black
kbr - brindle
k -normal

C series
C -normal
Cch -lightens the shade of the red

CO-DOMINANT
CC-normal-red (with dilute,sand)
CCch-dark fawn (with dilute, grey)
CchCch -fawn (with dilute, silver)

So:
bbD-CC -Red
bbD-CCch -Dark Fawn
bbD-CchCch -Fawn

bbddCC -Sand
bbddCCch -Grey
bbddCchCch -Silver

Genetic Model:

Black
DD EmEm KK CC
DD EmEm KK CCch
DD EmEm KK CchCch
DD EmEm Kkbr CC
DD EmEm Kkbr CCch
DD EmEm Kkbr CchCch
DD EmEm Kk CC
DD EmEm Kk CCch
DD EmEm Kk CchCch
DD EmE KK CC
DD EmE KK CCch
DD EmE KK CchCch
DD EmE Kkbr CC
DD EmE Kkbr CCch
DD EmE Kkbr CchCch
DD EmE Kk CC
DD EmE Kk CCch
DD EmE Kk CchCch
DD EE KK CC
DD EE KK CCch
DD EE KK CchCch
DD EE Kkbr CC
DD EE Kkbr CCch
DD EE Kkbr CchCch
DD EE Kk CC
DD EE Kk CCch
DD EE Kk CchCch
Dd EmEm KK CC
Dd EmEm KK CCch
Dd EmEm KK CchCch
Dd EmEm Kkbr CC
Dd EmEm Kkbr CCch
Dd EmEm Kkbr CchCch
Dd EmEm Kk CC
Dd EmEm Kk CCch
Dd EmEm Kk CchCch
Dd EmE KK CC
Dd EmE KK CCch
Dd EmE KK CchCch
Dd EmE Kkbr CC
Dd EmE Kkbr CCch
Dd EmE Kkbr CchCch
Dd EmE Kk CC
Dd EmE Kk CCch
Dd EmE Kk CchCch
Dd EE KK CC
Dd EE KK CCch
Dd EE KK CchCch
Dd EE Kkbr CC
Dd EE Kkbr CCch
Dd EE Kkbr CchCch
Dd EE Kk CC
Dd EE Kk CCch
Dd EE Kk CchCch

Blue
dd EmEm KK CC
dd EmEm KK CCch
dd EmEm KK CchCch
dd EmEm Kkbr CC
dd EmEm Kkbr CCch
dd EmEm Kkbr CchCch
dd EmEm Kk CC
dd EmEm Kk CCch
dd EmEm Kk CchCch
dd EmE KK CC
dd EmE KK CCch
dd EmE KK CchCch
dd EmE Kkbr CC
dd EmE Kkbr CCch
dd EmE Kkbr CchCch
dd EmE Kk CC
dd EmE Kk CCch
dd EmE Kk CchCch
dd EE KK CC
dd EE KK CCch
dd EE KK CchCch
dd EE Kkbr CC
dd EE Kkbr CCch
dd EE Kkbr CchCch
dd EE Kk CC
dd EE Kk CCch
dd EE Kk CchCch

Red
DD EE kk CC
Dd EE kk CC

Red with Black Mask
DD EmE kk CC
DD EmEm kk CC
Dd EmE kk CC
Dd EmEm kk CC

Red Brindle with black mask
DD EmEm kbrkbr CC
DD EmEm kbrk CC
DD EmE kbrkbr CC
DD EmE kbrk CC
Dd EmEm kbrkbr CC
Dd EmEm kbrk CC
Dd EmE kbrkbr CC
Dd EmE kbrk CC

Red brindle
DD EE kbrkbr CC
DD EE kbrk CC
Dd EE kbrkbr CC
Dd EE kbrk CC

Dk Fawn
Dd EE kk CCch
DD EE kk CCch

Dk Fawn with Black Mask
Dd EmE kk CCch
Dd EmEm kk CCch
DD EmE kk CCch
DD EmEm kk CCch

Dk Fawn Brindle with black mask
Dd EmE kbrk CCch
Dd EmE kbrkbr CCch
Dd EmEm kbrk CCch
Dd EmEm kbrkbr CCch
DD EmE kbrk CCch
DD EmE kbrkbr CCch
DD EmEm kbrk CCch
DD EmEm kbrkbr CCch

Dk fawn brindle
Dd EE kbrk CCch
Dd EE kbrkbr CCch
DD EE kbrk CCch
DD EE kbrkbr CCch

Fawn
Dd EE kk CchCch
DD EE kk CchCch

Fawn with Black Mask
Dd EmE kk CchCch
Dd EmEm kk CchCch
DD EmE kk CchCch
DD EmEm kk CchCch

Fawn Brindle with black mask
Dd EmE kbrk CchCch
Dd EmE kbrkbr CchCch
Dd EmEm kbrk CchCch
Dd EmEm kbrkbr CchCch
DD EmE kbrkbr CchCch
DD EmE kbrk CchCch
DD EmEm kbrk CchCch
DD EmEm kbrkbr CchCch

Fawn Brindle
Dd EE kbrk CchCch
Dd EE kbrkbr CchCch
DD EE kbrkbr CchCch
DD EE kbrk CchCch

Sand
dd EE kk CC

Sand with Blue Mask
dd EmE kk CC
dd EmEm kk CC

Sand Brindle with blue mask
dd EmE kbrkbr CC
dd EmE kbrk CC
dd EmEm kbrk CC
dd EmEm kbrkbr CC

Sand Brindle
dd EE kbrkbr CC
dd EE kbrk CC

Grey
dd EE kk CCch

Grey with Blue Mask
dd EmE kk CCch
dd EmEm kk CCch

Grey Brindle
dd EE kbrk CCch
dd EE kbrkbr CCch

Grey Brindle with blue mask
dd EmE kbrk CCch
dd EmE kbrkbr CCch
dd EmEm kbrkbr CCch
dd EmEm kbrk CCch

Silver
dd EE kk CchCch

Silver with Blue Mask
dd EmE kk CchCch
dd EmEm kk CchCch

Silver Brindle
dd EE kbrk CchCch
dd EE kbrkbr CchCch

Silver Brindle with blue mask
dd EmE kbrk CchCch
dd EmE kbrkbr CchCch
dd EmEm kbrk CchCch
dd EmEm kbrkbr CchCch


So I cut and pasted this from Maebes original model takeing out the "B" locus and splitting the brindles into mask/no mask. This takes out the whole blue brindle and blue brindle with blue mask category as they now show up as Sand/grey/silver brindle with or without blue mask. So there is another 6.25% to put onto the other starter colours (I think we could just add it to the blue)

CrosstheLine







 Maebe
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8/23/2008 9:14:11 AM reply with quote send message to Maebe Object to Post

The only problem I have with that is the fact that you CANNOT tell on every brindle dog wether or not it has a mask. We already have oodles of colors, I think keep it a little realistic in the fact that you CANNOT tell the entire genotype of a dog just from looking at it. In real life there will always be dogs that are unknown, and if you really want to find out if the brindle carries a masking gene, you'll have to do test matings.
As it better reflects real life, I'd rather have a little bit of 'guesswork' with the colors.
 CrosstheLine
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8/23/2008 12:38:26 PM reply with quote send message to CrosstheLine Object to Post

But you can tell that some brindles have masks. So how do we show some with visible masks and some with non visible masks.
It is kind of like flashy boxers. Sometimes the white on the muzzle covers up the mask but usually if you look really closely at the eyes you can see a little black that circles the eyes.
I think more often than not you can tell a brindle dog has a mask or doesn't. And I think this would make it a little less complicated for breeding a certain color (and give us a little more variety).
The blue masks are, I think, the hardest to see on brindle dogs except for the really light base colour.

Anyone else in the breed has an opinion on masked brindles??

Maebe what do you think of me getting rid of the "B" locus? I don't like to tinker too much with other peoples work because I know how hard those models can be to come up with. But I just thought that would simplify it a little and the "B" locus also affects nose colour and I don't think we need to get into that.

CrosstheLine
 Maebe
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8/23/2008 3:57:10 PM reply with quote send message to Maebe Object to Post

Hi, I don't mind getting rid of the B locus, I think first we had included that one, and it doesn't matter anymore now that we have the dominant K.
I just think, from the other breeds models that I've looked at, ours is by no means the simplest. If you can't tell the mask on most blues, and some blacks, why include it if it's not real. But I'd like to hear anyone else's opinion?
 CrosstheLine
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8/24/2008 1:27:22 PM reply with quote send message to CrosstheLine Object to Post

Ours isn't the simplest for sure, but it is also not the most complicated. I think breeds like the GSD's and others have over 40 different colour combinations and the number of possible genetic combinations number over 1000 (as opposed to our breed that has about 162).
I think it just makes it a little easier if you can tell the genotype (genetic code) by looking at the phenotype (how the dog looks).

CrosstheLine
 TwinsTrails
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8/25/2008 12:40:33 PM reply with quote send message to TwinsTrails Object to Post

You two are way over my head. LOL I don't know if this would help clarify or not...or if this is redundant, but here is a link to the akc acceptable colors for corsos:

www.akc.org/breeds/cane_corso/color_markings.cfm

It shows this:

Colors

Description Type Code

Black S 007
Black Brindle S 279
Chestnut Brindle S 520
Fawn S 082
Gray S 100
Gray Brindle S 107
Red S 140

Markings

Description Type Code

Black Mask S 004
Gray Mask S 041




I didn't see black brindle listed in the colors you are using(but could have overlooked it). Having a black brindle corso, myself, I'd love to see you add this also. happy :)
 CrosstheLine
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8/25/2008 5:32:06 PM reply with quote send message to CrosstheLine Object to Post

I think Black brindle is just a descriptive term used to describe a heavily brindled dog. For genetic purposes you look at the base coat (the colour of the coat that the black striping is on and use that as the base coat). Having a genetic model for black brindle would require us to look at the modifiers for the amount of brindle covering the base coat and I haven't been able to find anything about that in any of the sites I have looked at.
I myself have what could be described as a black brindle dog as well, but genetically she is a fawn brindle because the little base coat colour that shows through is fawn.


CrosstheLine
 Kuceras Kennels
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10/24/2008 9:33:57 AM reply with quote send message to Kuceras Kennels Object to Post

Cross The Line and Maebe - you two have done some FANTASTIC work for us.

This stuff is farily well beyond me, thus no chiming in so far. With Jeff back at it hot and heavy I would like to see us come to a conclusion on our color model.

Can anyone sum it up for us? It seems to have been a while since colors were addressed.

Can one of you maybe start a new thread with what is on the table and what needs imput?

Thanks for all your hard work.

 linday
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10/25/2008 8:24:45 AM reply with quote send message to linday Object to Post

Can't wait to get colors added. How fun happy :) Are we adding blue brindle as a color?
 CrosstheLine
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10/27/2008 7:10:37 PM reply with quote send message to CrosstheLine Object to Post

quote
posted by linday
Can't wait to get colors added. How fun happy :) Are we adding blue brindle as a color?
In the model above sand, grey, and silver would be shades of blue brindle (they are the base coat colour that the blue brindling would be over) so we could call all those colours blue brindle for simplicity sake (it would be hard to tell the difference between grey and silver brindle in real life anyway).

CrosstheLine
 linday
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10/30/2008 9:41:15 AM reply with quote send message to linday Object to Post

So did we submit these models to Jeff yet so we can be on the list to get colors added? Thanks.
 CrosstheLine
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10/30/2008 8:53:28 PM reply with quote send message to CrosstheLine Object to Post

I think we are still having trouble deciding on what colours to use and what they should be called.
I think as far as the masked brindle goes, maybe we could have all the black brindle (those without the dd dilution) showing mask or not, and all the blue brindle (those with the dd dilution) having the mask hidden.
As far as what to call the diluted colours. I have used blue with my other breed, but as I understand it in this breed you use grey.
In my other breed we used one term to describe all dd variations of red as light fawn (instead of silver, sand, and grey) and all the brindle of those colours was called blue brindle (or grey in this breed?).

There are still some details to fix befor we can send it in I think.

CrosstheLine
 CrosstheLine
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10/30/2008 9:14:20 PM reply with quote send message to CrosstheLine Object to Post

Black
(CC,Ccch,cchcch)/(DD,Dd)/(EE,Ee,ee)/(KK,KKbr,Kk)=54

Blue or Grey
(CC,Ccch,cchcch)/dd/(EE,Ee,ee)/(KK,KKbr,Kk)=27

Blue Fawn
(CC,Ccch,cchcch)/dd/(EE,Ee,ee)/kk=9

Blue brindle or Grey brindle
(CC,Ccch,cchcch)/dd/(EE,Ee,ee)/(KbrKbr,Kbrk)=18

Red
(CC,Ccch)/(DD,Dd)/ee/kk=4

Red brindle
(CC,Ccch)/(DD,Dd)/ee/(KbrKbr,Kbrk)=8

Red with black mask
(CC,Ccch)/(DD,Dd)/(EE,Ee)/kk=8

Red brindle with black mask
(CC,Ccch)/(DD,Dd)/(EE,Ee)/(KbrKbr,Kbrk)=16

Fawn
cchcch/(DD,Dd)/ee/kk=2

Fawn Brindle
cchcch/(DD,Dd)/ee/(KbrKbr,Kbrk)=4

Fawn with black mask
cchcch/(DD,Dd)/(EE,Ee)/kk=4

Fawn brindle with black mask
cchcch/(DD,Dd)/(EE,Ee)/(KbrKbr,Kbrk)=8

The numbers after the genetic code are the number of combinations that will result in that colour. So in total there are 162 different combinations. The blue fawn is also know as formentino (sp?) and the blue colours could be called grey or steel grey.
This is basically a watered down version of the model I did up for Staffordshire Bull Terriers (that model had over 50 different colours and over 4800 different genetic combinations).

Let me know what you think

CrosstheLine

 linday
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11/1/2008 10:57:41 AM reply with quote send message to linday Object to Post

I think its fine. All as I know is I like Blacks and Blue Brindles so as long as we have those colors I will be happy... happy :) Anyone else have any suggestions? Ideas? thoughts? We need to come to an agreement and submit it otherwise we will never have colors happy :)
 CrosstheLine
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11/17/2008 6:24:13 PM reply with quote send message to CrosstheLine Object to Post

Anyone else have any thoughts on the colours?? I made all the silver/grey/sand into just light fawn and blue/grey (for the diluted version of black). I took out the mask/no mask with the blue/grey brindle but I have left in the mask for the other brindle colours. I figure if any mask is hard to see it would be the diluted mask.
If we could find some way to differentiate how much brindling was on a dog then we could have black brindles (and not show masks on them) but I don't know of any genetic models that deal with the amount of brindling, so I am visualizing fairly light brindles on the different colours (like more red/fawn than black).

What do the other breeders think
It seems to be mostly me and Maebe that have had any sort of opinion on the mask/no mask debate so more input is needed or we will not be getting colour for a while.

CrosstheLine
 Lilliput
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10/22/2010 11:22:59 PM reply with quote send message to Lilliput Object to Post

bump
 D.L
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9/17/2018 2:20:01 AM reply with quote send message to D.L Object to Post

quote
posted by CrosstheLine
This is from a thread that I had with my other kennel, Straightedge Kennel, it is a template for staffie color genetics...

(taken from another post)I think I might have it...

The way this set of genetics works is that all dogs start off as Red. There are 3 different alleles to modify the coat color
D: no modification
dr: dilutes only the red coat (turning it fawn)
d: dilutes both red and black coat color (fawn with blue)

The mask and brindling (solid black) genes work same as before. And like before solid black is dominant over red (masking gene), but a homozygous dd will turn black blue (but drdr or drd will do nothing to black).

So the color combos available (and the number of genetic combinations that will give you that color) are:

Red---------------------------------3
Red with black mask------------6
red brindle--------------------------6
red brindle with black mask---12

Total red---------------------27

Fawn--------------------------------2
Fawn with black mask----------4
Fawn brindle----------------------4
Fawn brindle with black mask--8

Total fawn--------------------18

Fawn bluie------------------------1
Fawn bluie with blue mask----2
Blue brindle------------------------2
Blue brindle with blue mask---4
Blue---------------------------------9

Total Fawn Bluie/Blue---------18

Total Black-----------------------45
(includes black brindle and black with black mask)

Then the white markings are a masking gene so they are really easy to put in over the color gene (because the dilution gene doesnt affect the white).
In total there are 108 different combinations with Red being dominant over fawn (and fawn bluie) and solid black (brindle?) being dominant over red (but black will turn to blue with the dilution gene).
So you could never get a black or brindle dog from any double solid red or fawn (or fawn bluie) breeding.
You need at least one blue or black dog in a breeding to get solid blue or black.
And red can be a fawn carrier, fawn can't be a red carrier. Black can carry either red or fawn.

Let me know what you think and I'll post the list of genetic codes for each color. We also don't need to use the term "fawn bluie" It's just how I distinguish a diluted red and black color. Fawn bluies will never have a black mask. Blue brindles are actually fawn bluie brindles, but most people know them as blue brindles.
Please remember that most of these genetics are made up (using as much know facts as possible). What I am trying to do is make a simplified genetic code that follows real life as closely as possible,ie. in real life if you breed two fawns can you ever get a black dog?
But this is in now way "true" genetics.

Straightedge Kennel (end of other post)


This is what I came up with in my other kennel for Staffie Bulls. I know there are some color names that won't do for Cane Corsos, but "fawn bluie" is basically a fawn dog with blue markings (brindling or mask).
The one problem with making red a recessive trait to black is it is very easy to loose red all together.
The fawn bluie could be fawn and fawn with blue mask.
Let me know what you think

CrosstheLine

 D.L
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9/17/2018 2:20:43 AM reply with quote send message to D.L Object to Post

quote
posted by CrosstheLine
This is from a thread that I had with my other kennel, Straightedge Kennel, it is a template for staffie color genetics...

(taken from another post)I think I might have it...

The way this set of genetics works is that all dogs start off as Red. There are 3 different alleles to modify the coat color
D: no modification
dr: dilutes only the red coat (turning it fawn)
d: dilutes both red and black coat color (fawn with blue)

The mask and brindling (solid black) genes work same as before. And like before solid black is dominant over red (masking gene), but a homozygous dd will turn black blue (but drdr or drd will do nothing to black).

So the color combos available (and the number of genetic combinations that will give you that color) are:

Red---------------------------------3
Red with black mask------------6
red brindle--------------------------6
red brindle with black mask---12

Total red---------------------27

Fawn--------------------------------2
Fawn with black mask----------4
Fawn brindle----------------------4
Fawn brindle with black mask--8

Total fawn--------------------18

Fawn bluie------------------------1
Fawn bluie with blue mask----2
Blue brindle------------------------2
Blue brindle with blue mask---4
Blue---------------------------------9

Total Fawn Bluie/Blue---------18

Total Black-----------------------45
(includes black brindle and black with black mask)

Then the white markings are a masking gene so they are really easy to put in over the color gene (because the dilution gene doesnt affect the white).
In total there are 108 different combinations with Red being dominant over fawn (and fawn bluie) and solid black (brindle?) being dominant over red (but black will turn to blue with the dilution gene).
So you could never get a black or brindle dog from any double solid red or fawn (or fawn bluie) breeding.
You need at least one blue or black dog in a breeding to get solid blue or black.
And red can be a fawn carrier, fawn can't be a red carrier. Black can carry either red or fawn.

Let me know what you think and I'll post the list of genetic codes for each color. We also don't need to use the term "fawn bluie" It's just how I distinguish a diluted red and black color. Fawn bluies will never have a black mask. Blue brindles are actually fawn bluie brindles, but most people know them as blue brindles.
Please remember that most of these genetics are made up (using as much know facts as possible). What I am trying to do is make a simplified genetic code that follows real life as closely as possible,ie. in real life if you breed two fawns can you ever get a black dog?
But this is in now way "true" genetics.

Straightedge Kennel (end of other post)


This is what I came up with in my other kennel for Staffie Bulls. I know there are some color names that won't do for Cane Corsos, but "fawn bluie" is basically a fawn dog with blue markings (brindling or mask).
The one problem with making red a recessive trait to black is it is very easy to loose red all together.
The fawn bluie could be fawn and fawn with blue mask.
Let me know what you think

CrosstheLine


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