.com Forum · Cane Corso
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CrosstheLine Basic User Posts : 60 |
I don't think we need the "B" locus included (as it is the locus for black/brown not black/red as you have it and that also affects the nose colour (black nose/brown nose). The base coat of red is shown when there is either KbrKbr/Kbrk/kk at the "K" locus. Everything else looks pretty good, but I think it might be a good idea to indicate the masking in the brindle dogs ie. Red brindle with black mask, Blue brindle with blue mask. I think the only thing left is to decide on the names used for the colors. I am not in Cane Corsos in real life but I have been told that the fawn with blue mask is know as "formantino" sp? I don't know if we want to go that way or not. I personally am OK with the colours as they are and the percentages are OK (with masked brindles being added accordingly). And the removal of the "B" locus as unnecessary. Thanks a lot Maebe for getting that typed out, I know what a pain in the rump it can be. CrosstheLine |
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CrosstheLine Basic User Posts : 60 |
quoteSo Black...24.5% Blue...16.25% Red...1.25% Red with black mask...1.25% Red brindle...3.75% Red brindle with black mask...4.00% Dk fawn...1.25% Dk fawn with black mask...1.25% Dk fawn brindle...3.75% Dk fawn brindle with black mask...4.00% Fawn...1.25% Fawn with black mask...1.25% Fawn brindle...3.75% Fawn brindle with black mask...4.00% Sand...1.25% Sand with blue mask...0.5% Sand brindle...3.75% Sand brindle with blue mask...4.00% Grey...1.25% Grey with blue mask...0.5% Grey brindle...3.75% Grey brindle with blue mask...4.00% Silver...1.25% Silver with blue mask...0.5% Silver brindle...3.75% Silver brindle with blue mask...4.00% What I did is just take the number used for the brindle and split it between brindle and brindle with mask. CrosstheLine ETA changed the percentage for Blue and took out Blue brindle with and without mask |
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CrosstheLine Basic User Posts : 60 |
D series Genes: D- full pigment d-dilute to blue Em Series Genes: Em- mask E- no mask K series Genes: K -dominant black kbr - brindle k -normal C series C -normal Cch -lightens the shade of the red CO-DOMINANT CC-normal-red (with dilute,sand) CCch-dark fawn (with dilute, grey) CchCch -fawn (with dilute, silver) So: bbD-CC -Red bbD-CCch -Dark Fawn bbD-CchCch -Fawn bbddCC -Sand bbddCCch -Grey bbddCchCch -Silver Genetic Model: Black DD EmEm KK CC DD EmEm KK CCch DD EmEm KK CchCch DD EmEm Kkbr CC DD EmEm Kkbr CCch DD EmEm Kkbr CchCch DD EmEm Kk CC DD EmEm Kk CCch DD EmEm Kk CchCch DD EmE KK CC DD EmE KK CCch DD EmE KK CchCch DD EmE Kkbr CC DD EmE Kkbr CCch DD EmE Kkbr CchCch DD EmE Kk CC DD EmE Kk CCch DD EmE Kk CchCch DD EE KK CC DD EE KK CCch DD EE KK CchCch DD EE Kkbr CC DD EE Kkbr CCch DD EE Kkbr CchCch DD EE Kk CC DD EE Kk CCch DD EE Kk CchCch Dd EmEm KK CC Dd EmEm KK CCch Dd EmEm KK CchCch Dd EmEm Kkbr CC Dd EmEm Kkbr CCch Dd EmEm Kkbr CchCch Dd EmEm Kk CC Dd EmEm Kk CCch Dd EmEm Kk CchCch Dd EmE KK CC Dd EmE KK CCch Dd EmE KK CchCch Dd EmE Kkbr CC Dd EmE Kkbr CCch Dd EmE Kkbr CchCch Dd EmE Kk CC Dd EmE Kk CCch Dd EmE Kk CchCch Dd EE KK CC Dd EE KK CCch Dd EE KK CchCch Dd EE Kkbr CC Dd EE Kkbr CCch Dd EE Kkbr CchCch Dd EE Kk CC Dd EE Kk CCch Dd EE Kk CchCch Blue dd EmEm KK CC dd EmEm KK CCch dd EmEm KK CchCch dd EmEm Kkbr CC dd EmEm Kkbr CCch dd EmEm Kkbr CchCch dd EmEm Kk CC dd EmEm Kk CCch dd EmEm Kk CchCch dd EmE KK CC dd EmE KK CCch dd EmE KK CchCch dd EmE Kkbr CC dd EmE Kkbr CCch dd EmE Kkbr CchCch dd EmE Kk CC dd EmE Kk CCch dd EmE Kk CchCch dd EE KK CC dd EE KK CCch dd EE KK CchCch dd EE Kkbr CC dd EE Kkbr CCch dd EE Kkbr CchCch dd EE Kk CC dd EE Kk CCch dd EE Kk CchCch Red DD EE kk CC Dd EE kk CC Red with Black Mask DD EmE kk CC DD EmEm kk CC Dd EmE kk CC Dd EmEm kk CC Red Brindle with black mask DD EmEm kbrkbr CC DD EmEm kbrk CC DD EmE kbrkbr CC DD EmE kbrk CC Dd EmEm kbrkbr CC Dd EmEm kbrk CC Dd EmE kbrkbr CC Dd EmE kbrk CC Red brindle DD EE kbrkbr CC DD EE kbrk CC Dd EE kbrkbr CC Dd EE kbrk CC Dk Fawn Dd EE kk CCch DD EE kk CCch Dk Fawn with Black Mask Dd EmE kk CCch Dd EmEm kk CCch DD EmE kk CCch DD EmEm kk CCch Dk Fawn Brindle with black mask Dd EmE kbrk CCch Dd EmE kbrkbr CCch Dd EmEm kbrk CCch Dd EmEm kbrkbr CCch DD EmE kbrk CCch DD EmE kbrkbr CCch DD EmEm kbrk CCch DD EmEm kbrkbr CCch Dk fawn brindle Dd EE kbrk CCch Dd EE kbrkbr CCch DD EE kbrk CCch DD EE kbrkbr CCch Fawn Dd EE kk CchCch DD EE kk CchCch Fawn with Black Mask Dd EmE kk CchCch Dd EmEm kk CchCch DD EmE kk CchCch DD EmEm kk CchCch Fawn Brindle with black mask Dd EmE kbrk CchCch Dd EmE kbrkbr CchCch Dd EmEm kbrk CchCch Dd EmEm kbrkbr CchCch DD EmE kbrkbr CchCch DD EmE kbrk CchCch DD EmEm kbrk CchCch DD EmEm kbrkbr CchCch Fawn Brindle Dd EE kbrk CchCch Dd EE kbrkbr CchCch DD EE kbrkbr CchCch DD EE kbrk CchCch Sand dd EE kk CC Sand with Blue Mask dd EmE kk CC dd EmEm kk CC Sand Brindle with blue mask dd EmE kbrkbr CC dd EmE kbrk CC dd EmEm kbrk CC dd EmEm kbrkbr CC Sand Brindle dd EE kbrkbr CC dd EE kbrk CC Grey dd EE kk CCch Grey with Blue Mask dd EmE kk CCch dd EmEm kk CCch Grey Brindle dd EE kbrk CCch dd EE kbrkbr CCch Grey Brindle with blue mask dd EmE kbrk CCch dd EmE kbrkbr CCch dd EmEm kbrkbr CCch dd EmEm kbrk CCch Silver dd EE kk CchCch Silver with Blue Mask dd EmE kk CchCch dd EmEm kk CchCch Silver Brindle dd EE kbrk CchCch dd EE kbrkbr CchCch Silver Brindle with blue mask dd EmE kbrk CchCch dd EmE kbrkbr CchCch dd EmEm kbrk CchCch dd EmEm kbrkbr CchCch So I cut and pasted this from Maebes original model takeing out the "B" locus and splitting the brindles into mask/no mask. This takes out the whole blue brindle and blue brindle with blue mask category as they now show up as Sand/grey/silver brindle with or without blue mask. So there is another 6.25% to put onto the other starter colours (I think we could just add it to the blue) CrosstheLine |
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Maebe Basic User Posts : 31 |
The only problem I have with that is the fact that you CANNOT tell on every brindle dog wether or not it has a mask. We already have oodles of colors, I think keep it a little realistic in the fact that you CANNOT tell the entire genotype of a dog just from looking at it. In real life there will always be dogs that are unknown, and if you really want to find out if the brindle carries a masking gene, you'll have to do test matings. As it better reflects real life, I'd rather have a little bit of 'guesswork' with the colors. |
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CrosstheLine Basic User Posts : 60 |
But you can tell that some brindles have masks. So how do we show some with visible masks and some with non visible masks. It is kind of like flashy boxers. Sometimes the white on the muzzle covers up the mask but usually if you look really closely at the eyes you can see a little black that circles the eyes. I think more often than not you can tell a brindle dog has a mask or doesn't. And I think this would make it a little less complicated for breeding a certain color (and give us a little more variety). The blue masks are, I think, the hardest to see on brindle dogs except for the really light base colour. Anyone else in the breed has an opinion on masked brindles?? Maebe what do you think of me getting rid of the "B" locus? I don't like to tinker too much with other peoples work because I know how hard those models can be to come up with. But I just thought that would simplify it a little and the "B" locus also affects nose colour and I don't think we need to get into that. CrosstheLine |
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Maebe Basic User Posts : 31 |
Hi, I don't mind getting rid of the B locus, I think first we had included that one, and it doesn't matter anymore now that we have the dominant K. I just think, from the other breeds models that I've looked at, ours is by no means the simplest. If you can't tell the mask on most blues, and some blacks, why include it if it's not real. But I'd like to hear anyone else's opinion? |
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CrosstheLine Basic User Posts : 60 |
Ours isn't the simplest for sure, but it is also not the most complicated. I think breeds like the GSD's and others have over 40 different colour combinations and the number of possible genetic combinations number over 1000 (as opposed to our breed that has about 162). I think it just makes it a little easier if you can tell the genotype (genetic code) by looking at the phenotype (how the dog looks). CrosstheLine |
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TwinsTrails Basic User Posts : 16 |
You two are way over my head. LOL I don't know if this would help clarify or not...or if this is redundant, but here is a link to the akc acceptable colors for corsos: www.akc.org/breeds/cane_corso/color_markings.cfm It shows this: Colors Description Type Code Black S 007 Black Brindle S 279 Chestnut Brindle S 520 Fawn S 082 Gray S 100 Gray Brindle S 107 Red S 140 Markings Description Type Code Black Mask S 004 Gray Mask S 041 I didn't see black brindle listed in the colors you are using(but could have overlooked it). Having a black brindle corso, myself, I'd love to see you add this also. |
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CrosstheLine Basic User Posts : 60 |
I think Black brindle is just a descriptive term used to describe a heavily brindled dog. For genetic purposes you look at the base coat (the colour of the coat that the black striping is on and use that as the base coat). Having a genetic model for black brindle would require us to look at the modifiers for the amount of brindle covering the base coat and I haven't been able to find anything about that in any of the sites I have looked at. I myself have what could be described as a black brindle dog as well, but genetically she is a fawn brindle because the little base coat colour that shows through is fawn. CrosstheLine |
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Kuceras Kennels Basic User Posts : 369 |
Cross The Line and Maebe - you two have done some FANTASTIC work for us. This stuff is farily well beyond me, thus no chiming in so far. With Jeff back at it hot and heavy I would like to see us come to a conclusion on our color model. Can anyone sum it up for us? It seems to have been a while since colors were addressed. Can one of you maybe start a new thread with what is on the table and what needs imput? Thanks for all your hard work. |
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linday Basic User Posts : 28 |
Can't wait to get colors added. How fun Are we adding blue brindle as a color? |
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CrosstheLine Basic User Posts : 60 |
quoteIn the model above sand, grey, and silver would be shades of blue brindle (they are the base coat colour that the blue brindling would be over) so we could call all those colours blue brindle for simplicity sake (it would be hard to tell the difference between grey and silver brindle in real life anyway). CrosstheLine |
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linday Basic User Posts : 28 |
So did we submit these models to Jeff yet so we can be on the list to get colors added? Thanks. |
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CrosstheLine Basic User Posts : 60 |
I think we are still having trouble deciding on what colours to use and what they should be called. I think as far as the masked brindle goes, maybe we could have all the black brindle (those without the dd dilution) showing mask or not, and all the blue brindle (those with the dd dilution) having the mask hidden. As far as what to call the diluted colours. I have used blue with my other breed, but as I understand it in this breed you use grey. In my other breed we used one term to describe all dd variations of red as light fawn (instead of silver, sand, and grey) and all the brindle of those colours was called blue brindle (or grey in this breed?). There are still some details to fix befor we can send it in I think. CrosstheLine |
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CrosstheLine Basic User Posts : 60 |
Black (CC,Ccch,cchcch)/(DD,Dd)/(EE,Ee,ee)/(KK,KKbr,Kk)=54 Blue or Grey (CC,Ccch,cchcch)/dd/(EE,Ee,ee)/(KK,KKbr,Kk)=27 Blue Fawn (CC,Ccch,cchcch)/dd/(EE,Ee,ee)/kk=9 Blue brindle or Grey brindle (CC,Ccch,cchcch)/dd/(EE,Ee,ee)/(KbrKbr,Kbrk)=18 Red (CC,Ccch)/(DD,Dd)/ee/kk=4 Red brindle (CC,Ccch)/(DD,Dd)/ee/(KbrKbr,Kbrk)=8 Red with black mask (CC,Ccch)/(DD,Dd)/(EE,Ee)/kk=8 Red brindle with black mask (CC,Ccch)/(DD,Dd)/(EE,Ee)/(KbrKbr,Kbrk)=16 Fawn cchcch/(DD,Dd)/ee/kk=2 Fawn Brindle cchcch/(DD,Dd)/ee/(KbrKbr,Kbrk)=4 Fawn with black mask cchcch/(DD,Dd)/(EE,Ee)/kk=4 Fawn brindle with black mask cchcch/(DD,Dd)/(EE,Ee)/(KbrKbr,Kbrk)=8 The numbers after the genetic code are the number of combinations that will result in that colour. So in total there are 162 different combinations. The blue fawn is also know as formentino (sp?) and the blue colours could be called grey or steel grey. This is basically a watered down version of the model I did up for Staffordshire Bull Terriers (that model had over 50 different colours and over 4800 different genetic combinations). Let me know what you think CrosstheLine |
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linday Basic User Posts : 28 |
I think its fine. All as I know is I like Blacks and Blue Brindles so as long as we have those colors I will be happy... Anyone else have any suggestions? Ideas? thoughts? We need to come to an agreement and submit it otherwise we will never have colors |
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CrosstheLine Basic User Posts : 60 |
Anyone else have any thoughts on the colours?? I made all the silver/grey/sand into just light fawn and blue/grey (for the diluted version of black). I took out the mask/no mask with the blue/grey brindle but I have left in the mask for the other brindle colours. I figure if any mask is hard to see it would be the diluted mask. If we could find some way to differentiate how much brindling was on a dog then we could have black brindles (and not show masks on them) but I don't know of any genetic models that deal with the amount of brindling, so I am visualizing fairly light brindles on the different colours (like more red/fawn than black). What do the other breeders think It seems to be mostly me and Maebe that have had any sort of opinion on the mask/no mask debate so more input is needed or we will not be getting colour for a while. CrosstheLine |
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Lilliput Basic User Posts : 3,000+ |
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