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Showdog.com Forum · Bug Reporting and Suggestions

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Author Topic : Jeff, can this be done???
 MorganMtn
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10/18/2016 7:35:27 AM reply with quote send message to MorganMtn Object to Post   

I've noticed that there are many source dogs in Pyrs that are all being shown, no one is using handlers and we're all having fun showing to see which sources are placing. Because someone with all blue dogs is entering a blue dog on a handler every night they are taking all of the shows. People are spending a stack of money to enter all their dogs when they have no hope of beating this person's blue dog.....to top it off the source kennels have picked up on what's going on so they are pulling their dogs from the show for all the fees. Would you consider the idea of throwing a couple of SOURCE DOG/source dog pedigrees ONLY shows into the mix so all of the kennels who are trying to get started up can show without facing this problem?
 admin
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10/18/2016 7:39:38 AM reply with quote send message to admin Object to Post

That's something that would need to be presented as a poll.

To be clear though, if only source dogs were allowed to enter, there would be no championship points awarded.
 Dead Until Dark
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10/18/2016 10:52:58 AM reply with quote send message to Dead Until Dark Object to Post

I am personally not a fan of the idea. The best dog wins- saying pick the best of out the lesser stock seems pointless.

I guess this is part of the everyone gets a trophy society we live in.

Those entering source dogs could simply "play the game" to and wait until the last minute to make thier entries so others cant come in behind them.

The purpose of breeding is to better the lines, someone, or many, worked over the years to get the "blue dog" and they should not be punished.
 Kalynda
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10/18/2016 11:20:48 AM reply with quote send message to Kalynda Object to Post

Are you asking for a fun match?

Meaning no points, no champions, no handlers?



  Absolut
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10/18/2016 1:52:00 PM reply with quote send message to  Absolut Object to Post

How do you define SOURCE ONLY show? Only gen 0-3?

You will have different generations of source-bred dogs always. So these shows would benefit who exactly? The gen 0 will theoretically always lose to a gen 5. But gen 5 (even gen 15-30+) is still considered quite source-bred -- at least compared to current generation.

I think another issue is that when people choose to source breed, they know that they are starting at the bottom -- and so we kind of have to take it as it is. The good, bad, and ugly.

Perhaps (and this wouldn't be great) it would be better to create a show with a 20$ entry fee? Maybe that would deter current generation breeders from entering? But you are sinking a lot of money.

I think you would need to determine a generation cut-off, but then that will still leave any other generation past that mark (who are not considered current) without shows that benefit them.
  Absolut
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10/18/2016 1:55:25 PM reply with quote send message to  Absolut Object to Post

Maybe a fun match-type show is an answer.

Even if better dogs entered and placed above others in a match, if each dog was ranked/placed, then you could compare to the dogs around your current quality to determine their value.
 gaylanstudio
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10/18/2016 4:24:07 PM reply with quote send message to gaylanstudio Object to Post

this post has been edited 1 time(s)

I think in this case you will probably just have to work with the system.

Is the breed one that is seriously lacking breeders such that that 'blue' dog is unable to get majors without taking advantage of your sources? If that's the case maybe make a deal - you will supply enough entries to make the points if they will leave every other show alone, or some sort of suitable arrangement, bearing in mind that none of this is enforcable - it's a gentlemans or gentlewomans agreement.

Does the breeder/owner of 'blue' dog make their 'blue' bloodlines available - that is that they make their studs available so that you can breed up.

If they are only entering one of each sex, the reserve will be one of your sources and thus still being the best source and at worst, 3rd in breed.

You can as was suggested wait them out and do last minute entries.

As for restricting things based on generation, I believe that if you breed two 0 gens together the pups become gen 1. If you breed a gen 0 to a gen 8, the pups will be gen 9 but if you breed two gen 8's the pups will also be gen 9. These two gen 9 litters will not be equal.

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Last edited by gaylanstudio on 10/18/2016 4:31:08 PM
 Chaos and Havoc
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10/18/2016 4:37:29 PM reply with quote send message to Chaos and Havoc Object to Post


If you wanted to be able to show your Source dogs only (against other Source Dogs) then like others have suggested there would need to be a 'Fun Match' created where you don't win CH points or titles etc. Source dogs should never be allowed to win over current SOP dogs or win the same titles/points/etc that current SOP dogs compete for. Players have been breeding current SOP dogs for many years which is why their SOPs are so high and it would be a rude slap in the face to allow a Sourcie to win at their level. It would defeat the whole point of people breeding and showing current SOP dogs.

If you wanted Jeff to create a 'fun match' then you would need to decide on how the show was to be judged - and what the 'cut-off' would be for what constitutes a 'source dog' when you get higher up in Generation and SOP. Would the classes be broken into Gen 1, Gen 2, Gen 3? etc

In my opinion - I personally do not think your argument/vent is valid.

You claim that you feel aggrieved when another player enters a current SOP ('blue') dog into a show where you've entered a tonne of Sourcies. This player is not breaking any SD rules or etiquette. They are simply entering their dog into a show which they believe will give their dog the best chance of winning placements and points - which in all honesty - is the whole point of this game.

If I was to show a current SOP dog against other current SOPs and I was trying to enter him and saw that there was already 4 males entered into one show - I would obviously not enter that show. If however I saw that there were 4 bitches and no dogs entered in another show - then clearly I would enter my boy in that show as it allows my boy the best chance of picking up points if he goes BOB over the girls and also gives him the best/first choice of handlers.

I agree with what several other players have already stated - the best dog entered should be the dog who wins. That is how the game is supposed to work.

I do not feel that your vent is warranted. If it was me showing a current SOP dog and then I read somewhere that another player who had entered Sourcies was complaining that they didn't win - I know I would be pretty annoyed for being accused of wrong-doing when I would have been playing 'fair and square' within the normal rules of the game.

That being said - I haven't shown dogs on SD for several weeks as I don't have the time to anymore, especially when there are many more important issues with this game that need to be addressed - but that's a whole other story.

In regards to the player not 'sharing' their dogs:
I completely understand your pain here sad :( I have been in breeds in the past where there were only a handful of current SOP dogs locked in an active kennel that didnt put boys up for stud or offer any dogs up for sale - leaving the rest of us to source breed from scratch to keep the breed alive. I totally understand that feeling of frustration. But in the end if those 'types' of players won't help out - then often the least stressful resolution is to simply cut your losses and leave that breed. There are 188 breeds to choose from - and the majority have nice, helpful players. Thankfully the difficult, unsharing players are in the minority.
 BarStar Goldens
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10/18/2016 6:11:19 PM reply with quote send message to BarStar Goldens Object to Post

I see 3 kennels with current sop Pyrs. Have you tried reaching out to them politely to ask about use of studs?

What concerns me more are the 4 or so basic kennels being used to fill shows from time to time...

Will
 South Canada
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10/19/2016 11:29:52 AM reply with quote send message to South Canada Object to Post

I think fun matches in general could be fun, especially if we could enter puppies (and retired dogs!). Its a fun idea to think of source dog shows, however I don't think there are enough overall players to provide supportive entries for an exclusively source dog show.
 
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10/19/2016 4:49:18 PM reply with quote send message to Object to Post edit post

Ok... so here's the problem: she is not asking for a fun match.
In Pyrs, we have several problems. First, we believe that several basic kennels are the same people.
Secondly, there are several kennels with one or more "blue" Pyrs (no more than 5 and usually one of several breeds owned).
One kennel, in particular, will enter one blue dog per show and two blue dogs (one male/one female) in a show with about 20-25 source dogs. All dogs will have a handler.

This leaves no free shows where source people can enter their dogs to get CHs on them. How are newbies supposed to enjoy the game if they can NEVER enter their sources? How can source people have the pride in creating CH pedigrees if one player, instead of showing all of their blues in one show and stacking, decides to take all the shows.

We source breeders have to stay up from midnight to one o'clock to enter (we're on Eastern time) on the chance that there is not one blue dog per show.
I would understand it if we were in a popular breed with 20 breeders who all have a kennel full of blue dogs and all the shows had dogs entered in it. But when we signed up 6 weeks ago, there was only one breeder in Pyrs... who had source dogs. We were all on a level playing field. Then four other kennels signed up within a week of each other and they were all breeding sources. Still a level playing field. then two, three (?) players asked other players to reclaim their blue Pyrs so they could buy them and started waiting to see when the sources were entered.

I do believe the best dog should win. That's why I stack a show with my source dogs and I CHOOSE not to compete against blue dogs. But to have a person enter one dog in every show KNOWING FULL WELL that they are taking away ANY CHANCE for any other kennel to get CH points is unsportsmanlike.

I won't even enter my GCH Blue dog against source dogs other than my own, even though I could rack up breed points if I did so. (Although I did accidentally yesterday and didn't realize it until it was too late.)

 Studio Dogs
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10/20/2016 1:35:45 AM reply with quote send message to Studio Dogs Object to Post

yes...
1 no handler, all breed show per night for breeds under 50 sop

what could go wrong with running 6 shows per night?

the race is on for who gets to sponsor it wink :)


where is the poll?

 Random Smatterings
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10/20/2016 6:58:11 AM reply with quote send message to Random Smatterings Object to Post

Well, the thing is, Jeff plainly stated that if he made a source dog show, no dogs would be awarded points. So the only option left is a fun match.

South Canada @Random Smatterings
 Studio Dogs
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10/20/2016 10:04:46 AM reply with quote send message to Studio Dogs Object to Post

It will still give an idea of what the decimal places are.

Then again I just researched what/why this poster is angry....

Reply from my other post.

quote
I also want to add that it is a banning offense if you have a supper kennel. Meaning more than one kennel of the same breed acting as one - including to bump competitions.

That is what makes me furious !

 Kalynda
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10/20/2016 10:43:14 AM reply with quote send message to Kalynda Object to Post

quote
posted by Studio Dogs
It will still give an idea of what the decimal places are.

Then again I just researched what/why this poster is angry....

Reply from my other post.

quote
I also want to add that it is a banning offense if you have a supper kennel. Meaning more than one kennel of the same breed acting as one - including to bump competitions.

That is what makes me furious !


Do you really think that Jeff still looks for super kennels or multiple basics? I really think we're pretty much on an honor system now!

Regarding the source shows - I thought the OP just wanted a way to rank her dogs but it seems that they want to put championships on source dogs. Have to say, I am not a fan of all red Champions in any breed - even in a virtual game!

K
 rhondacline
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10/20/2016 11:57:53 AM reply with quote send message to rhondacline Object to Post

I agree with Kalynda

 MorganMtn
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10/20/2016 5:12:19 PM reply with quote send message to MorganMtn Object to Post

It really is about ranking your dogs, not really about the titles. I would be more than happy to have source Matches without actual points. Even though I am starting over on SD now with five kennels with sources, both my daughter and I played for several years back in the late 90s-2000s, technically neither of us are really new to the game. Thank you for all of your inputs.
 SmokeJumper Kennel
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10/20/2016 10:17:50 PM reply with quote send message to SmokeJumper Kennel Object to Post

Showdog started in 2003
 MorganMtn
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10/21/2016 7:00:40 AM reply with quote send message to MorganMtn Object to Post

quote
posted by SmokeJumper Kennel
Showdog started in 2003
Thanks for that info.....we must have started playing that year, I couldn't remember exactly what year we started playing......senior moments!!! LOLs.
 Kalynda
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10/21/2016 10:08:28 AM reply with quote send message to Kalynda Object to Post

quote
posted by MorganMtn
It really is about ranking your dogs, not really about the titles. I would be more than happy to have source Matches without actual points. Even though I am starting over on SD now with five kennels with sources, both my daughter and I played for several years back in the late 90s-2000s, technically neither of us are really new to the game. Thank you for all of your inputs.
You should be able to figure out ranking even if a non-source kennel is entering dogs. I have done that with unsessioned dogs and also use placements as a tool in determining potential stud dog/brood bitch rankings....

I'll add a specialty for your breed to give you one more option.

K
 admin
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10/21/2016 10:10:39 AM reply with quote send message to admin Object to Post

quote
Do you really think that Jeff still looks for super kennels or multiple basics?
I do and I catch just as much hell when I punish them as I do from the people that say I don't, it's always been that way.

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The third obedience title is a UD, or "Utility Dog", which is earned through competition in the Utility obedience class