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Author Topic : Complete Color Genetics for Basenjis.
 Dangerous Forest kennel
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7/16/2008 3:00:11 AM reply with quote send message to Dangerous Forest kennel Object to Post   

well, as i said i would i have been talking to some basenji breeders and have had a lot of help. huge thanks goes out to Lisa Voss for helping me write up this and give a full explanation when i got lost, lol. so here it is. we were unable to do a few colors that i had wanted, as not every breeder agrees upon how some get inherited,and the genes for them.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

you are dealing with 3 loci to give various color combinations.

A - Agouti the location for red and tri genes and possibly saddle.
K - Black, the location for dominant black and brindle
D - Dilution, the location for dilution that causes blue and blue fawn (blue fawn is also called Cream)

At the agouti locus Red is dominant over tri, so reds can carry the tri gene and produce tris if bred to other tri carriers or to tris.

At the K locus Black is considered dominant though in reality it is probably co-dominant with brindle but black stripes on black looks the same as black in most light. Neither black nor brindle is the recessive.

At the dilution locus, dilute is recessive to non-dilute.

Most basenjis are homozygous DD so usually when considering color genetics you do not have to deal too much with dilution unless you know there was a dilute or dilute carrier recently in the pedigree, such as Avongara Siri of Brushy Run or her sire or dam who both must have been carriers.

In a red or tri basenji you also know they must be homozygous recessive at the K locus so then you are only really dealing with the Agouti genes. In black and brindle basenjis you need to consider both K and Agouti genes.

Here are the gene combinations that give the following phenotypes. Using the key:
D - not dilute d- dilute
Y - Red y - tri
K - Black K^br - brindle k - neither black nor brindle

Red and White - DDkkYY, DDkkYy, DdkkYY, DdkkYy

Black and White - DDKkYY, DDKkYy, DDKkyy, DDKKYY, DDKKYy, DDKKyy, DdKkYY, DdKkYy, DdKkyy, DdKKYY, DdKKYy, DdKKyy, DDKK^brYY, DDKK^brYy, DDKK^bryy, DdKK^brYY, DdKK^brYy, DdKK^bryy

Brindle and White - DDK^brkYY, DDK^brkYy, DDK^brK^brYY, DDK^brK^brYy, DdK^brkYY, DdK^brkYy, DdK^brK^brYY, DdK^brK^brYy

Tri-color - DDkkyy, Ddkkyy

Trindle - DdK^brK^bryy, DdK^brkyy, DDK^brK^bryy, DDK^brkyy

Blue and White - ddKkYY, ddKkYy, ddKkyy, ddKKYY, ddKKYy, ddKKyy,ddKK^brYY, ddKK^brYy, ddKK^bryy

Blue Fawn(Cream) and White - ddkkYY, ddkkYy

Blue Tri - ddkkyy

Blue Brindle and White - ddK^brkYY, ddK^brkYy, ddK^brK^brYY, ddK^brK^brYy

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

we were unable to code for Sable and Mahogany, but did get blues and blue brindles.

That should be just about it for Jeff. if anyone has something to add, please speak up.

~Char



 Dangerous Forest kennel
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7/16/2008 3:05:03 AM reply with quote send message to Dangerous Forest kennel Object to Post

also, Mrs. Voss just linked me this which is *quite* important as to color distribution.

kineticbasenjis.tripod.com/Information/Color_genetics.mht

~Char
 kiroja
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7/17/2008 1:30:50 AM reply with quote send message to kiroja Object to Post

My expectations...KEEP IT SIMPLE! This is Showdog. It is about dog shows and show dogs. It is not about trying to breed rare colors or breeding native dogs. lol According to the AKC standard (which this game is pretty much based off of) there are 4 accepted colors. So I say that is what we stick with.

From the standard:
"Color--Chestnut red; pure black; tricolor (pure black and chestnut red); or brindle (black stripes on a background of chestnut red); all with white feet, chest and tail tip. White legs, blaze and collar optional. The amount of white should never predominate over primary color. Color and markings should be rich, clear and well-defined, with a distinct line of demarcation between the black and red of tricolors and the stripes of brindles."

I do have one exception though, there is really a 5th accepted color, despite the poorly written standard. A trindle, or it's more formal name of the brindle pointed tri, is (according to AKC) technically an accepted color and they say that it IS included in the standard. Their reasoning is that a trindle is still a tricolor (black tan and white) and there is nothing in the standard that says WHERE those colors must begin and end. They still have that "clear demarcation" between the stripes of black and red. Now other countries have standards that describe where the tan is, and that is different. But our parent club has been told that the trindle is already an accepted color in the US becasue it is still only those three colors, just organized a little differently. There's nothing that says the black cannot be within the tan. But try getting most judges to understand that!!! Also it is important to add this color because it is a naturally occuring color from two accepted colors. And also the result of dominant (brindle) genes. So pretty hard to avoid if you're breeding a brindle to a tri, black, or red that might carry a tri gene in there. There is official DNA testing that you can get to find out if your dog is a tri carrier. But I don't see a lot of breeders bothering to use that. Some breeders have an old fashioned standpoint and try their darndest to avoid breedings that might produce trindles. Others don't care what they get. There are trindles out there showing, there are several that are finished, both from handlers and owner handled, and I know of a couple more that are just looking for a last major.

However I don't think we should be adding the cremes and blues and mahoganys, etc. These are colors you just don't see in shows or coming from breeding show dogs. Yes, there are still the occasional rare bloodlines that can produce these, but it's pretty much the recent native imports and their progeny. Not something I think should be included in a show dog game both for technical reasons and also simplicity for Jeff and the game. According to the breed standard, there are no DQs in basenjis. However these "other" colors are heavily faulted in the ring. And should be, because they are not "in the standard". Not that they aren't pretty or shouldn't be around, but this is a show and judges have a standard to go by, and it is the parent club that writes that standard. lol And I challenge you all to find somebody showing a cream, blue, mahogany, lemon pointed tris etc., other than at African matches at specialties. Not gonna see it.

So I think we should re-work that chart to remove the dilution gene. I didn't have time to jot one down myself but now I'm glad I don't have to reinvent the wheel. Also I think a more precise description of the colors will help. A red & white basenji (don't forget all colors must say "& white"wink ;) is a chestnut red dog resulting from at least one dominant gene on the agouti series. A red and white dog can be heterozygous and carry one dominant red gene and one recessive tri gene. It will still appear as a normal red and white but sometimes they have a few black hairs on the inside of their tail and/or on the back of their ears. Char, Zumi appeared to be a tri carrier, you can check his tail.

A tricolor (or black tan and white) Basenji has a black coat with tan on the cheeks, over the eyes ("pips"wink ;), and along the legs and rear, when not covered by the white markings. Tricolor and red are on the same location and tricolor is recessive to red so you must have two recessive tri genes for the dog to appear tri. A tri bred to a tri will only produce tris.

A black and white Basenji will appear black, however it is also genetically either a red or tri underneath. Black is dominant to not black and is on a separate location than the red/tri genes. And the black color will overlay or mask the other colors, except white markings. So a dog with at least one dominant gene for black will always appear black. However it could be genetically a red dog, a red dog that carries tricolor, or a tricolor dog. A black dog bred to any other dog can produce other colors as long as it doesn't have both dominant black genes. If it does, all offspring will appear black.

The brindle and white is a bit touchy, because it's not really a color. The brindle is a PATTERN of stripes on a red and white dog. This brindling is dominant, and is on the same series as black (and co-dominant with the black), so again the stripes can occur on any of the three Basenji "colors". Most commonly you see the brindle striping on a red and white dog which is what we call the brindle and white dog. lol But you can also get the brindle pattern on a black dog. It's very difficult to tell, sometimes the stripes are noticable in certain sunlight, but basically it's black on black. lol Only test breedings to a non black dog will help tell you if there are really brindle stripes there or not. These dogs are registered as black and whites because it's really not known until later if the brindling is there or not. Also the brindle pattern can show on a tricolor dog, which is where the trindle comes in. A very "taboo" color in the breed, but really shouldn't be. Until people understood genetics better, breeders thought this was just a muddying of the nice clear tricolor coat they had worked so hard to get over the years. But really it's not, it's simply a dominant pattern of stripes on a clear tricolor dog. The brindle stripes, just like the black color, will overlay or "mask" the other coloring of the dog. So these stripes are very visible on the red/tan parts of the dogs. But the stripes are still very distinct, just as if they were on a red dog.

The trindle is officially registered as a "black, brindle, and white". I still don't like this term as this also describes a black and white with the brindle gene. lol Well sorta anyways. But it's all we have for now. Breeders have been beating this subject to death over the years and still haven't come up with a good and agreeable way to change the standard to incorporate the trindle and make the brindling more of a pattern than a color. The trindle looks like a tricolor dog, except where the tan is on the cheeks, legs,etc. you also see striping like on a brindle. If anyone would like pictures I have some.

Something that hasn't been brought up, that is much more common than the creams and such (although still "rare" occuring) is the recessive tri (fula tri or barred tri) and recessive black (fula black). I still think for simplicity's sake and the fact that you don't see them that often that we should NOT include them in this game. But far more to include these than the others you mentioned. A recessive "fula" tri looks like a normal tricolor, except that there is a thick black bar across the tan in the cheeks. it is NOT the same as a trindle, where there is tiger striping all throughout the body (even on the black where you can't see it). These dogs have also finished their championships and are not that big of a deal. A recessive "fula" black basically looks like a black and white dog, but as they age, you see some tan ticking on their rear and along the back of their ears, etc. They may look like a pure black at birth, but later you can tell the difference. They don't get as much tan to look like a tri though. lol Again these dogs have finished because they basically appear to be a black and white dog for a while.

The fula tris and blacks I believe are on the A series with the red and tri genes. They are even more recessive than tri though. Having one copy of this gene along with a tri gene gives you the recessive tri when you would normally have a tri dog, having both copies gives you the recessive black. So if you've ever heard of somebody getting a black dog out of two red parents, this is where it comes from. It's a recessive black, not a typical dominant black. Both those red dogs must have carried that fula gene. And the result is a recessive black dog, not a real black and white (genetically) dog. Now I'm not positive my genetic coding description was accurate on this, it's very late and I didn't have time to look up the terms, this is all off my head. lol

There's also the recessive red color, or "ee" coding. We won't get into that either. And then of course saddles, again another pattern like the brindle. (looks like a beagle) Not going to go there. lol
 Dangerous Forest kennel
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7/17/2008 2:05:48 PM reply with quote send message to Dangerous Forest kennel Object to Post

Basenjis come (naturally) in quite a few colors, but for the lack of headaches and simplicity, we’ve decided to simplify the colors down to what AKC allows. I have re-written each code to be included, along with a description of the correct color.

We will be looking into the 5 allowed colors, which are: Chestnut Red and White, Black and White, Brindle and White, Tri-color and Trindle (aka Black, Brindle and White). All colors must say “and White”.

There are three Locus we are dealing with:
A - Agouti the location for red and tri genes. At the agouti locus Red is dominant over tri, so reds can carry the tri gene and produce tri’s if bred to other tri carriers or to tri’s.

K - Black, the location for dominant black and brindle. At the K locus Black is considered dominant though in reality it is probably co-dominant with brindle but black stripes on black looks the same as black in most light. Neither black nor brindle is the recessive.

D - Dilution, the location for dilution that causes blue and blue fawn. Most dogs even in real life are not diluted. At the dilution locus, dilute is recessive to non-dilute. Most basenjis are homozygous DD so usually when considering color genetics you do not have to deal too much with dilution. Only dd would create a dilution. If the dog carried Dd, it would still show full color, not dilution.

In a red or tri basenji you also know they must be homozygous recessive at the K locus so then you are only really dealing with the Agouti genes. In black and brindle basenjis you need to consider both K and Agouti genes.

Using this key:
D - not dilute d- dilute
Y - Red y - tri
K - Black K^br - brindle k - neither black nor brindle.

Here are the gene combinations that give the following phenotypes.

Chestnut Red and White - DDkkYY, DDkkYy, DdkkYY, DdkkYy

Black and White - DDKkYY, DDKkYy, DDKkyy, DDKKYY, DDKKYy, DDKKyy, DdKkYY, DdKkYy, DdKkyy, DdKKYY, DdKKYy, DdKKyy, DDKK^brYY, DDKK^brYy, DDKK^bryy, DdKK^brYY, DdKK^brYy, DdKK^bryy

Brindle and White - DDK^brkYY, DDK^brkYy, DDK^brK^brYY, DDK^brK^brYy, DdK^brkYY, DdK^brkYy, DdK^brK^brYY, DdK^brK^brYy

Tri-color - DDkkyy, Ddkkyy

Trindle (aka Black, Brindle and White) - DdK^brK^bryy, DdK^brkyy, DDK^brK^bryy, DDK^brkyy

Now for a detailed description fo each color. (Provided by Kiroja) I have included a picture of each, for good measure. If anyone wants pics of a tri-factored dog, I can post pictures of Zumi showing his black ticked tail and ears. Most of these dogs are Kiroja’s own dogs, I have made notations for each.

Red, or Chestnut Red and White is a chestnut red dog resulting from at least one dominant gene on the agouti series. A red and white dog can be heterozygous and carry one dominant red gene and one recessive tri gene. It will still appear as a normal red and white but sometimes they have a few black hairs on the inside of their tail and/or on the back of their ears. (And yes, Zumi is tri-factored as he still has black ticking on his tail and back of his ears. Hard to see but definitely there.) Red bitch pictured below is owned by Kiroja Basenjis
basenjis.com/roxie20mos.jpg"> basenjis.com/roxie20mos2.jpg">

A tricolor (or black tan and white) Basenji has a black coat with tan on the cheeks, over the eyes ("pips"wink ;), and along the legs and rear, when not covered by the white markings. Tricolor and red are on the same location and tricolor is recessive to red so you must have two recessive tri genes for the dog to appear tri. A tri bred to a tri will only produce tris. Tri pictured below belongs to Briden Basenjis
basenjis.com/photo/justpics/lural03b.jpg">


A black and white Basenji will appear black, however it is also genetically either a red or tri underneath. Black is dominant to not black and is on a separate location than the red/tri genes. And the black color will overlay or mask the other colors, except white markings. So a dog with at least one dominant gene for black will always appear black. However it could be genetically a red dog, a red dog that carries tricolor, or a tricolor dog. A black dog bred to any other dog can produce other colors as long as it doesn't have both dominant black genes. If it does, all offspring will appear black. Black dog pictured below belongs to Kiroja Basenjis
basenjis.com/louie8mos.jpg">

The brindle and white is a bit touchy, because it's not really a color. The brindle is a PATTERN of stripes on a red and white dog. This brindling is dominant, and is on the same series as black (and co-dominant with the black), so again the stripes can occur on any of the three Basenji "colors". Most commonly you see the brindle striping on a red and white dog which is what we call the brindle and white dog. But you can also get the brindle pattern on a black dog. It's very difficult to tell, sometimes the stripes are noticeable in certain sunlight, but basically it's black on black. lol Only test breedings to a non black dog will help tell you if there are really brindle stripes there or not. These dogs are registered as black and whites because it's really not known until later if the brindling is there or not. Also the brindle pattern can show on a tricolor dog, which is where the trindle comes in. Brindle Bitch pictured below belongs to Kiroja Basenjis
basenjis.com/cleo12mos2.jpg">

The trindle is officially registered as a "black, brindle, and white". I still don't like this term as this also describes a black and white with the brindle gene. lol Well sorta anyways. But it's all we have for now. Breeders have been beating this subject to death over the years and still haven't come up with a good and agreeable way to change the standard to incorporate the trindle and make the brindling more of a pattern than a color. The trindle looks like a tricolor dog, except where the tan is on the cheeks, legs,etc. you also see striping like on a brindle.A very "taboo" color in the breed, but really shouldn't be. Until people understood genetics better, breeders thought this was just a muddying of the nice clear tricolor coat they had worked so hard to get over the years. But really it's not, it's simply a dominant pattern of stripes on a clear tricolor dog. The brindle stripes, just like the black color, will overlay or "mask" the other coloring of the dog. So these stripes are very visible on the red/tan parts of the dogs. But the stripes are still very distinct, just as if they were on a red dog. Trindle dog pictured below was found on flickr.com



~Char
 kiroja
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7/18/2008 5:07:02 AM reply with quote send message to kiroja Object to Post

I will add more comments about the write up and my edits later, and I think I have a better tri picture too, have to look. My trindle picture probably isn't as good as the one you found though, nice going!

I got your email to us Char, and I actually was thinking about the same thing this morning, just didn't get a chance to post it yet. I was going to ask if Jeff was considering percentages in his calculations and if you all think we should do it.

I personally think we should have different percentages for the initial adding of colors. I think this would be appropriate because it reflects the most accurate numbers of actual show dogs and puppies from show breeders that are out there in the real world. While it might be nice to start from a level playing field, I think we should be as realistic as possible. And that means having lots more reds. lol And remember that all these generations are going to randomly get their colors assigned and our results will change quite a bit because you don't have any "breeder selection" happening. So we should try to adjust it to get the best most realistic results we can possibly get so that when all the generations are colored and we can now make our choices in future litters with color considered, that we can individually contribute to that alteration of percentages however we want to, but at least we started out with as close to what RL is like as possible.

Here's my first thought of percentage breakdowns if we decide to do that. I figure about 40% for red/whites, 20% for black/tan/whites, 20% for brindle/whites, 15% for black/whites, and 5% for black/brindle/whites (trindles).

I could easily see getting rid of the 5% trindles altogether and not starting off the game with ANY of them becuase it is not a color that really any show person "tries" to breed for. And only a handful have ever entered the ring anyways. Of course after a few generations of our dogs going through the SD random color process you're going to end up with lots of trindles in the population because the computer won't have the negative culling aspect of trindles that RL breeders have. Well they weren't culled per se, but they were usually put in pet homes and hidden away so others didn't see they produced them. lol So even if we start out with NO trindles in gen 0, I'm sure we'll see several trindles in our current gen dogs becuase the computer will take them into account more fairly than RL breeders did and also that brindling is dominant so it's easy to keep producing. So I am tempted to say no trindles in the beginning because that's most accurate and you'll still end up with some today anyways to work with despite the 0 at the start. lol

Also I can easily see adding another 5% or so to the red category. There are LOTs of red dogs out there! I can easily see dropping the blacks by at least 5% because that is the least popular color, by far. (not including trindles of course) Many people don't like the look of the blacks, they don't show wrinkles well and kinda have an evil look. There are a handful of breeders that focus on black and whites, but the majority of breeders do not have many blacks in their lines. And unless you have blacks, you can't produce any. It's not like a tri where it can crop up out of nowhere from carriers. Black is not the most recent color addition to the world of Basenjis, but they are probably the color with the least amount of initial founders in the breed. The black color actually came from a different part of Africa than the original Basenjis came from. So they have very few black ancestors compared to the others. I must admit black dogs are getting much more popularity recently and are having a lot more success in the show ring than they used to. Many judges just don't like to put up blacks, but they are coming around. But still, definitely smaller in number overall.

Now tricolors are not as rare as you think Char. They are actually quite popular and are the 2nd easiest color to finish, so to speak. Tris have been around for a LOONG time and many breeders fancy them. They of course are not as easy to get in a breeding because it's recessive and many people have red dogs. It's not a given to get a tri unless you do a tri x tri breeding.

Brindles are the newest color addition, they have only been around for about 20 years. However there were several newer importa that were brindle and many people started using them to try and improve health in the breed, as well as embracing the new color. So the brindle became a popular color very rapidly. Brindle is dominant so once you have it you can go hog wild with it. lol There are still a few folks who don't care for them. And probably mostly because it produces trindles. lol But overall this color started out being rare but took off like a rocket. Johnny's very successful show career also helped. In my area there are a lot of people who breed/show brindles so you see quite a few. But it still I don't think has overcome the number of tris overall across the US and the world for that matter. It's hard to say though. I really don't know how to divy up those two colors' percentages very accurately, the tri and the brindle. Guess this might be a good question to pose to lots of breeders and see what the concensus is.

Ok, that's my $.02. Time for bed!!!
 Guiding Senjis
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7/18/2008 9:15:43 PM reply with quote send message to Guiding Senjis Object to Post

wiped as identical post below sorry guys tho enables me to say I do love the tri pattern
 Guiding Senjis
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7/18/2008 9:16:36 PM reply with quote send message to Guiding Senjis Object to Post

quote
posted by kiroja
It's not a given to get a tri unless you do a tri x tri breeding.
Thank you for the pictures Char, they helped put a face on the Trindle coloration. I need to google the blue coloration to see one on it.
A few questions for Kiroja and others actively breeding. With Tris being recessive, does a tri to tri breeding show any other traits due to recessive lines such as I presume Overo to overo resulting in lethal white genes in horse breeding and other breeds and species?

Another question which would not effect the game at all, but in real life I know many breeds with the dilute blue coloration and brindle, those dogs have skin and topical allergy issues, do they in Basenji as well?
Might be posted twice as I hit post then hit stop as wanted to open kennel to see that I didnt time out.
 vonderlangan
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7/19/2008 10:15:36 PM reply with quote send message to vonderlangan Object to Post

I agree with just having the allowed colors. As for the percentages, I'm kind of on the fence... I have Labs in another kennel, and both yellow and chocolate were completely bred out of lines by generation 24. My ACDs here are all red speckled, no blues, as it is with most of the other ACD breeders. I would hate to see the Basenjis end up with only one color as well. Nice work, BTW, Char. wink ;)

 Dangerous Forest kennel
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7/20/2008 12:52:25 PM reply with quote send message to Dangerous Forest kennel Object to Post

thanks Vonde, and that is the exact situation i do not want to happen. some breeds are "color-stuck" and are having to get starters to try and breed back some of the colors, i do not want this to happen in basenjis. so yes, while having percentages of each color may seem more realistic in the beginning, what will happen down the generations? will we lose colors like the others? Again it is just a suggestion introduced to me by the borzoi breeders, as the breed as a whole has decided to level the playing field.

~Char
 kiroja
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7/23/2008 6:47:05 PM reply with quote send message to kiroja Object to Post

I can see both sides of the story too, so I'm amenable one way or the other. Do you guys have links to the genetic charts for those breeds that lost certain colors? I'd like to see the breakdown to find out which combinations of genes were wiped out to see how it might affect our breed's colors.

So if there's a chance we might lose something, should we maybe adjust percentages in the opposite direction? Like I mean, the dominant genes should be the easiest ones to lose because once they're gone they're gone. A recessive is the hardest to get out of a breeding, but it can still hide in there. So should we give a slightly higher percentage to the red, brindle, and black to help make sure they stay in the game? Just a thought. Or should we just stick with an equal 25% of each color going into things? If we're going to make everything equal I would NOT introduce any trindles at the start. Again, they'll be easy to come by once you get to current generations as long as the brindle and tri genes survive. And they're not something you see in the ring very often in the real world anyway.
 kiroja
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7/23/2008 7:18:37 PM reply with quote send message to kiroja Object to Post

Also, to respond to Guiding Senjis' genetic questions, no there is no genetic problems with tris being a recessive gene. Kudos to you for the overo example, I know exactly what you're talking about. I got my inital genetics education in horses, and helped solidify it with a college course. happy :) And funny enough, I learned probably more about conformation in that genetics class when we studied heritability of physical traits, than I got in my judging class where it was all about judging conformation. lol Yes in horses you never want to breed overo to overo becuase if you get two overo genes it is lethal. This is a white spotting pattern. Also in horses a true white (albino) gene is also lethal. There are a lot of dilute colors in horses, depending on the breeds, but that's very different than white.

A lot of the lethal genes and health problems associated with color genetics are usually with white or very dilute colors. Whites in certain breeds, like the boxers, etc. do associate with skin problems, allergies, deafness, etc. I know in dalmations, when breeders bred for those lovely spots, they also unknowingly bred in a very nasty uric acid problem. Can't remember all the details off hand, but I think it makes them very prone to forming stones. Many dalmations these days have this problem because of course of the spotting pattern/color that they have now.

There are also a lot of genetic/health problems in some of the rarer colors in breeds because of the closed gene pool that they work with, not because of the color itself. For some breeds, there are people that are breeding FOR the rare colors like white and such, and with a limited amount of individuals to use and so many very close relatives in pedigrees, you end up expressing a lot more health issues than you would normally.

As far as Basenjis, there is definitely nothing associated with tris that we can tell so far. I can't remember but I think there was some thought on cremes and health issues, but not as serious as whites in other breeds. It was mostly an undesirable color to the original breed founders and because of lack of technology there was also worry about the health aspect too.
 Khepera Rising Sun
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7/29/2008 10:02:15 PM reply with quote send message to Khepera Rising Sun Object to Post

A genetics question... (please don't shoothappy :)!)

I am NOT a genetics expert by any means, I am a total amateur, so I REALLY am not trying to offend anyone, I am simply trying to understand where I might need to learn more, etc etc.

I looked at the locus' used to express the basenji genetics, and
it didn't make sense to me compared to the genetics references I
was using working on other breeds, so if you can show me where I
may or may not be wrong, I would be grateful. Char did great work,
I just don't understand the D and K Locus as they're being described - which is probably just me being clueless, but would someone be kind enough to look at this and correct me where I'm wrong?

I thought that the K Locus (KB, Kbr, Ky - which could honestly be expressed KK Kk kk to simplify for game purposes, or not...) controlled whether the A locus showed agouti through with or without brindling, and the E locus controlled base black or red, except where recessive black is aa. I thought I understood it that the dominant K allowed solid, but didn't itself determine what that solid colour was, and the recessive K's allowed variants of A.
Also, A is responsible for fawn/sable through agouti, but most of these require E or Em at the E locus for the darker colours. This is on one of the sites I'm using for reference and I want to make sure that I'm not misunderstanding it, so if one of you genetics experts could correct me?
:
K LOCUS
KB KB self-colored (solid color in pigmented areas)
KB kbr self-colored (solid color in pigmented areas)
KB ky self-colored (solid color in pigmented areas)
kbr kbr allows A locus to express (tan point, tricolor, fawn, sable, tawny) with brindling
kbr ky allows A locus to express (tan point, tricolor, fawn, sable, tawny) with brindling
ky ky allows expression of agouti patterns without brindling

A LOCUS:
The A locus is responsible for a number of common coat patterns in the dog. Expression of all of them requires any combination of two k or Kbr alleles at the K locus, and at least one E or EM allele at the E locus. The gene involved is the Agouti gene, and variations in it are responsible for fawn and sable dogs (Ay), wild type (aw), tan points (at), and recessive black(a).

I would really like to understand if I've got my comprehension of the K locus wrong, I know many resources say that it's relatively new in canine genetic analysis ... and my references also talk about the B LOCUS controlling brown, where the D LOCUS is a dilution gene that turns black and brown to blue and grey ... do or do not Basenji's need an E locus expressed for their colour, and should they have a B LOCUS expressed?

Thanks, this will help me get my attempts at understand genetics a little more correct, thank you!!!! - Jet

 Guiding Senjis
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7/30/2008 7:53:59 PM reply with quote send message to Guiding Senjis Object to Post

quote
posted by Dangerous Forest kennel

you are dealing with 3 loci to give various color combinations.

A - Agouti the location for red and tri genes and possibly saddle.
K - Black, the location for dominant black and brindle
D - Dilution, the location for dilution that causes blue and blue fawn (blue fawn is also called Cream)

At the agouti locus Red is dominant over tri, so reds can carry the tri gene and produce tris if bred to other tri carriers or to tris.

At the K locus Black is considered dominant though in reality it is probably co-dominant with brindle but black stripes on black looks the same as black in most light. Neither black nor brindle is the recessive.

At the dilution locus, dilute is recessive to non-dilute.

Most basenjis are homozygous DD so usually when considering color genetics you do not have to deal too much with dilution unless you know there was a dilute or dilute carrier recently in the pedigree, such as Avongara Siri of Brushy Run or her sire or dam who both must have been carriers.

In a red or tri basenji you also know they must be homozygous recessive at the K locus so then you are only really dealing with the Agouti genes. In black and brindle basenjis you need to consider both K and Agouti genes.

Here are the gene combinations that give the following phenotypes. Using the key:
D - not dilute d- dilute
Y - Red y - tri
K - Black K^br - brindle k - neither black nor brindle

Red and White - DDkkYY, DDkkYy, DdkkYY, DdkkYy

Black and White - DDKkYY, DDKkYy, DDKkyy, DDKKYY, DDKKYy, DDKKyy, DdKkYY, DdKkYy, DdKkyy, DdKKYY, DdKKYy, DdKKyy, DDKK^brYY, DDKK^brYy, DDKK^bryy, DdKK^brYY, DdKK^brYy, DdKK^bryy

Brindle and White - DDK^brkYY, DDK^brkYy, DDK^brK^brYY, DDK^brK^brYy, DdK^brkYY, DdK^brkYy, DdK^brK^brYY, DdK^brK^brYy

Tri-color - DDkkyy, Ddkkyy

Trindle - DdK^brK^bryy, DdK^brkyy, DDK^brK^bryy, DDK^brkyy

Blue and White - ddKkYY, ddKkYy, ddKkyy, ddKKYY, ddKKYy, ddKKyy,ddKK^brYY, ddKK^brYy, ddKK^bryy

Blue Fawn(Cream) and White - ddkkYY, ddkkYy

Blue Tri - ddkkyy

Blue Brindle and White - ddK^brkYY, ddK^brkYy, ddK^brK^brYY, ddK^brK^brYy

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

we were unable to code for Sable and Mahogany, but did get blues and blue brindles.

That should be just about it for Jeff. if anyone has something to add, please speak up.

~Char




As others haven't replied my personal impression is maybe for simplicity (if there is such a thing?):P that we should do for the Red and white, black and white Tricolor and Brindle... As they are most common. Or do we also want to include rarer colors?

BTW Just realized posting in my non Basenji kennel lol but this is Guiding Senjis Trying to change in another window so HOPE it will show as from my Senjis kennel
 Khepera Rising Sun
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7/30/2008 8:40:15 PM reply with quote send message to Khepera Rising Sun Object to Post

Oh, thanks Senji, but I have to confess I must be an idiot.
I still don't get why there isn't an E locus, but I think
I understand the D instead of the B looking at it again.
I must have missed all the Blue, not sure HOW I missed all
the blue, but there it is - must have been reading that
WAAAAY overtired happy :) Char really did fantastic research
and work on that - I was just hoping someone could explain
interactions of E and K to me cause I think I'm confuzzled.
I *thought* I got it, but now ... sigh.
thanks happy :) - Jet
 
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7/31/2008 12:29:06 AM reply with quote send message to Object to Post edit post

quote
posted by Khepera Rising Sun
Oh, thanks Senji, but I have to confess I must be an idiot.
I still don't get why there isn't an E locus, but I think
I understand the D instead of the B looking at it again.
I must have missed all the Blue, not sure HOW I missed all
the blue, but there it is - must have been reading that
WAAAAY overtired happy :) Char really did fantastic research
and work on that - I was just hoping someone could explain
interactions of E and K to me cause I think I'm confuzzled.
I *thought* I got it, but now ... sigh.
thanks happy :) - Jet

LOL I was lost on the locus thing... wish those in da know could bash it out in chat if we could all connect at one time, I work tomorrow so off shortly now, Off Fri so will be on earlier, could come into sd chat on here, or even make a basenji room on our off the site chat server, if anyone would be interested, think Kiro might come if she is home, Char? and whom else might be willing to connect, or of course can do it in posts here
 Guiding Senjis
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7/31/2008 12:54:05 AM reply with quote send message to Guiding Senjis Object to Post

oops sorry that was me before signed out of port and then hit send without signing back in on Gs
 kiroja
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7/31/2008 9:05:20 PM reply with quote send message to kiroja Object to Post

Jet, I would love to help explain your questions, but I'd have to do a little research myself to make sure I'm saying it right. Off the top of my head I don't think I remember enough to make a lot of sense. lol Most Basenji breeders understand the inheritance of the basic colors, so the actual loci are not discussed frequently. And I haven't read any of the wonderful genetic books out there to familiarize myself with dogs as a whole, although if I ever have any free time I would love to do that.

I can't say much without looking up the details, but I know that E is the extension locus and I think it is believed that most basenjis are EE which I think allows expression of black pigment when it's there. There are a few however with Ee that still look normal but when combined right, there have been a few cases of dogs ending up as "ee". This recessive combination I think surpresses all black pigment. This produces what we call a "recessive red" as it is most noticable when the dog should be a tri or black, etc. and ends up red because there is no E gene to allow the black pigment to show.

Don't quote me on that, but that's just what happens to be floating around in my brain at the moment.

I'd love to chat if everyone is interested in getting together. I am available tonight, but most nights I have to work so I'm on late. Like usually after midnight Eastern time. Guiding Senjis and Char know how to message me if y'all end up in chat and want to drag me in. happy :) I don't go to chat that often because I'm usually busy online trying to catch up with other stuff and I get too distracted in chat to accomplish anything. lol However I am more than happy to stop and visit with anyone anytime they want. Just let me know!

Time to feed the kids...
 Guiding Senjis
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8/6/2008 7:34:06 PM reply with quote send message to Guiding Senjis Object to Post

We need to finish hammering out colors... Kiro and I want to learn more genetics. Have a feeling it will fall into play when colors added to breed. Have just been breeding haphazardly lately
 Lilliput
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10/23/2008 6:34:05 PM reply with quote send message to Lilliput Object to Post

Hi guys,
sorry to bump up an old thread, I was checking breed forums to see who still needs help in coding, and noticed that your is incomplete. Your current code you've left in the D locus, even though it seems you've decided you don't want blue. With your current codes, Jeff will probably refuse your breed, because it allows for blue,, but the blue codes are missing. You need to remark them so that you leave out the D code altogether (technically, all dogs should be DD, but as its not in play, it doesn't need to be listed) Dunno if that makes sense. Basically, by coding some dogs Dd, you leave open the option for dd which isn't something you want.

Here's how it should look-

Using this key:
Y - Red y - tri
K - Black K^br - brindle k - neither black nor brindle.

Here are the gene combinations that give the following phenotypes.

Chestnut Red and White -
kkYY
kkYy

Black and White -
KkYY
KkYy
Kkyy
KKYY
KKYy
KKyy
KK^brYY
KK^brYy
KK^bryy

Brindle and White -
K^brkYY
K^brkYy
K^brK^brYY
K^brK^brYy

Tri-color -
kkyy

Trindle (aka Black, Brindle and White) -
K^brK^bryy
K^brkyy

 kiroja
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10/25/2008 12:29:35 AM reply with quote send message to kiroja Object to Post

Thanks Lilliput. Yes, we hadn't gotten around to finishing our decisions on the color genetics. I have been meaning to find time to refine the post, but haven't gotten to it yet. There's a few more edits I wanted to do besides taking the dilute out. Will try to get to that in the next week or two. We were not ready to send to Jeff yet. lol
 Lilliput
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10/25/2008 1:28:52 AM reply with quote send message to Lilliput Object to Post

ah, ok. I'm pretty sure Jeff is no longer going by submissions and instead surfing the forums. I'd keep a note on it that its NOT finished, until you guys are agreed. happy :) -Neb

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