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posted by Castleberry
If the game were mine to design?

1) I would take this opportunity to add an additional set of traits to the dogs. These would be "performance traits"
(At one point these were discussed under another topic) - I think you would have something like -Intelligence, Trainability, Drive, etc

then another area that deals with the physical aspects of performance - things like - flexibility, stamina, speed, etc

I think you want to add traits that can be used to determine placement in a number of different events - agility, herding, field trials, lure coursing, tracking, earthdog, etc. - so it would need some forethought

Different events would utilize different combinations of traits (like conformation puts different weight on different traits for different breeds)

2) These added performance traits would be combined with sessioning to determine winners in different events. Just like we use sessioning and genetic traits to determine winners in the conformation ring now.

Anyway, work is calling (unfortunately) - but that is a quick glance at how I envisioned the new events that I hope are going to be added one day.

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I like this idea a lot. I think that the reason obedience ISN'T more of a thing is that it's impossible to breed for; just push enough buttons and you get it--there really isn't a big strategy element to it, unless I've completely missed something.

If we're going to have a new event, I think effort should be put into it to make it a new and interesting part of the game.

I also think that Agility should effect prestige. This would motivate more people to become involved in the event.

Hmmm... I'm just thinking about wether it would be good for some breeds to be better at agility than others. Example: dachshunds with their tiny litter legs might not win, and instead a larger & faster breed would win. Also, sessioning for agility and it's own set of stats would be great.

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posted by NissaV

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posted by Castleberry
If the game were mine to design?

1) I would take this opportunity to add an additional set of traits to the dogs. These would be "performance traits"
(At one point these were discussed under another topic) - I think you would have something like -Intelligence, Trainability, Drive, etc

then another area that deals with the physical aspects of performance - things like - flexibility, stamina, speed, etc

I think you want to add traits that can be used to determine placement in a number of different events - agility, herding, field trials, lure coursing, tracking, earthdog, etc. - so it would need some forethought

Different events would utilize different combinations of traits (like conformation puts different weight on different traits for different breeds)

2) These added performance traits would be combined with sessioning to determine winners in different events. Just like we use sessioning and genetic traits to determine winners in the conformation ring now.

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I like this idea a lot. I think that the reason obedience ISN'T more of a thing is that it's impossible to breed for; just push enough buttons and you get it--there really isn't a big strategy element to it, unless I've completely missed something.

If we're going to have a new event, I think effort should be put into it to make it a new and interesting part of the game.

I also think that Agility should effect prestige. This would motivate more people to become involved in the event.

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I mostly agree with the above. However, to make things simpler I would use some of the things we already have.

For instance:
Heel Free, Recall, Long Sit, Long Down, Broad Jump, and Directed Jumping could be used in agility as well, However I would probably require a lower level of training than for obedience (ie: minimal benefit for sessioning over 15). We could also use some of the structure traits (FQ,HQ,Gait,NTB) and Muscle Tone. However, as well the obedience traits I would have an exponential decay in benefit with improvement (ie: much more penalty for being poor than for being slightly less than perfect).

I would fully support a few extra traits: Drive, Independence, Intelligence/Trainability (these would be genetic and revealed to us)

Judging for agility should give you 4 different values: 1) Speed, 2) Precision (faults), 3) Rank in you height class, 4) whether you Qed or not (some threshold for speed and precision depending on level).

Clearly 3 & 4 would be functions of 1 & 2 so I won't discuss them in detail.

Precision would depend on the dog's training, the handler-dog relationship, independence and drive. More independent dogs would tend to be less precise.

In addition: high drive dogs would be very sensitive to handler-dog relationship (low handler-dog relationship + high drive would result in very low precision). and Independent dogs would be less sensitive to handler-dog relationship.

Speed would depend on the dog's structure, muscle tone, independence, drive and handler-dog relationship. independent dogs would be faster, high drive dogs would be faster, good handler-dog relationship will improve the speed.

Training: speed of training would depend on the intelligence/trainability and independence of the dog. More independent dogs would train slower, more intelligent dogs would train faster.

You should beable to train: contacts, weaves, teeter, tunnels. The rest is covered by the obedience skills I mentioned above.

The last thing that needs to be worked out is how to determine the handler-dog relationship, It should slowly increase for as long as you own the dog (perhaps it can rise faster if you raise the dog from a puppy?) and should rise faster every time you work with the dog (this is any sessioning).

By having things overlap with other events it should make it cost fewer sessions. But the trade-offs between drive, independence, and speed, precision will provide lots of strategic possibilities to keep it interesting.

grif,

PS I would have little to no inherent breed bias but rather I would have independence, intelligence/trainability, and drive have different distributions depending on breed.

eg. hounds might be very likely to have a high independence, and BCs might be very likely to have high drive. That way you could breed a line (or find a dog) in any breed that would be good at agility it would just be harder to do in some breeds than others.

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posted by NissaV
I like this idea a lot. I think that the reason obedience ISN'T more of a thing is that it's impossible to breed for; just push enough buttons and you get it--there really isn't a big strategy element to it, unless I've completely missed something.

If we're going to have a new event, I think effort should be put into it to make it a new and interesting part of the game.

I also think that Agility should effect prestige. This would motivate more people to become involved in the event.

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This is what I don't want to happen. I think that if we added those kinds of stats, it will take away from the focus of this game. People in more competitive breeds, instead of trying to breed up, will try to only be competitive in events, and not in shows. This will decrease the quality of those breeds as a whole. I think that takes away from the purpose of this game as a whole.

I do believe that certain breeds should excel at agility whereas others are not as inclined (a beagle wouldn't be as good as a border collie, for instance).

I agree that agility (and obedience) should effect prestige, but not as much as conformation results.

Bottom line, I think that conformation should be the main focus of this game, with other events for the fun of adding titles to your dog if you put in the time and effort.

I would also like to see traits such as independence, intelligence/trainability, and drive added as heritable traits that we must breed for. Similar to the Cutting traits on ShowHorse.

I would not like there to be a breed bias simply based on breed, yes BCs are good at agility, but that's because within the breed traits like high drive and trainability have been bred for over the centuries. There are plenty of individual dogs in other breeds that possess these qualities too, even if it is atypical of the breed.

Thanks for adding agility! What sanctioning group rules are we going by? I would prefer AKC, because I know those rules really well, but everybody is different. I also think that agility should affect prestige and that we should have specific traits to session for agility, including, contacts, weaves, table, tunnels, jumps (hurdles, broad jump (we do have this already), tire jump, etc.), and I think there should be handling/sequencing sessions and should be some part judged on dog-handler relationship.


Thanks for reading this,
Luckydogwhisperer

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posted by Picardy

I would not like there to be a breed bias simply based on breed, yes BCs are good at agility, but that's because within the breed traits like high drive and trainability have been bred for over the centuries. There are plenty of individual dogs in other breeds that possess these qualities too, even if it is atypical of the breed.

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This is an EXCELLENT point. I think that it would come out in the trainability and such, without having to create a cut-and-dried, set-in-stone list.

I can bet I've done more agility than any of you here, but I don't have time to pay much attention to this right now.

I don't want something like obedience where all you do is if you session enough you get there. And something that takes tons of sessions like obedience (ie each exercise), as have other things to use sessions for. Unless pup sales and stud fees pick up mightily, not going to have $ for extras like agility/obed.

I'd like to see dogs with individual traits for

Obedience (got that already in show obed).

Drive/speed (too much drive w/o enough obedience can cause dog running around ring w/o paying attention so bad). Maybe could use temperament even tho it's not really the orig definition.

Trainability-this is NOT obed, this is how fast learn, obed means how much obeys. Can be slow to train but great obeying, or fast to train but not obey.

Breed biases, yes, should have this to make it like RL so you would have BCs and shelties doing great BUT you have other breeds that have rare individuals that are super too.

Structure 1-based on conformation structure traits that would affect jumping (ie like fore, hind, gait, TNB, feet but not head, coat, size).

Structure 2- based on breed. Like above said, dachies aren't great fast runners, tho their typical competition of corgis are very fast despite short legs.

Class heights. Can't use size trait for this as it's relative for the breed. In RL you don't have dachies competing with BC's. AKC has 8, 12, 16, 20, 24, 26, and preferred classes on top of that (4, 12, 16, 20) But I think it ought be kept more simple here.

This isn't something you can just spit out easily if it's going to be done right to make it interesting. I'm not sure how these "trials" set for the next 2 days are supposed to work if there's no basis for how they're going to run.

I agree with the posters suggesting that there needs to be more to it than just sessioning enough to get there... like obedience. I don't do it because there isn't any skill or challenge involved.

Also there needs to be a "SDWC" type show for obedience and agility, top all breeds, top group, top breed in both sports, something to try to achieve, something to aim for. It would be fun to have the top winning dog in breed and obedience.

If more sports are going to be added to showdog then they should be a real part of the game, in my opinion, not just added in a half hearted kind of way ( that's how I feel about the obedience aspect of SD, so I choose not to participate in it).

I think this could be fun for those who enjoy agility but I think it needs to be created in the right manner or it will fall by the wayside like obedience has for the most part.

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posted by MagicWolf
If others feel the main focus of the game should be conformation, maybe Jeff needs a new game 'AgilityDog.com' and 'HerdingDog.com' and 'RetrieverTrial.com' and so on. Could all be modeled closely after Showdog (to avoid too much extra work) but each would focus on different performance traits (basically just re-label the conformation traits as something performance-related). I wonder if there would be a way to link them - have the same dog available on all the dog games and pay an extra $5 or $10/year to add on the extra sites, with each site having its own sessions and competitions. You wouldn't want them totally separate otherwise you'd just be splitting your subscribers. I know, waaaaay complicated but just thinking for 'someday' down the road to keep in mind. 'Breeding better dogs' for some breds IS about performance and NOT conformation (like working bred border collies) and I think allowing a different focus to the breeding would appeal to more types of dog people.

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Hate this idea. why can't we just have everything here? I'm not paying extra for that. No.

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posted by TriStar Kennels
If more sports are going to be added to showdog then they should be a real part of the game, in my opinion, not just added in a half hearted kind of way ( that's how I feel about the obedience aspect of SD, so I choose not to participate in it).

I think this could be fun for those who enjoy agility but I think it needs to be created in the right manner or it will fall by the wayside like obedience has for the most part.

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Personally, I think the issue with obedience is 1) as indicated by someone earlier, there's not really any skill needed to earn the obedience titles. Session enough and you earn the titles.

2) also the amount of sessions it takes to gain those titles keeps a lot of people from competing in obedience - I liked the idea above about having additional obedience sessions.

I think with some "tweaks" many more people might compete in obedience (and agility)

I'm also all for the kinds of changes Castleberry has mentioned. I've brought it up in other posts in the past. I realize it's a lot of work coding, but I honestly think that not only can these changes be added without taking away from the quality of existing breeds (someone will always want to work on conformation), they might be what will allow this game to keep its edge. The resetting of the stats has bought us a little longer before the invasion of the "perfect" dogs occurs, but honestly, how long do you guys think it will take until we're back into the 10.01s competing vs the 10.001s?

I love this game, but I think it could be even more incredible if it allowed for a broader, more diverse scope of competition. Can you guys imagine how much fun it would be to tackle the challenge of balancing conformation and performance in your lines? Of creating the ideal hunting retriever or working on dual agility/conformation poodles? Herding border collies? Or maybe even doing lure coursing?

Agility is a great start, but I think that adding performance events with a realistic genetic component (not just lots of sessioning, but requiring a combination of good breeding and good training) would go even further to draw in new players and keeping the interest of those who are here once stats start to level out towards 10s again.

Being an agility competitor in RL, I am really excited that agility is being added. There are so many options. Below are some suggestions, based on real life. If you keep it simple, hopefully it will stir some excitement and become as addictive as the real sport.

1. An real agility dog must be able to stay with the handler on the course, stay on the table, come when called if it goes off course. So perhaps right now, a dog that was sessioned in these three things ( heel off lead, sit or down stay, and recall) would have added advantage. Obviously much more training goes into agility, but you could start with this to get things going. Later you could add contacts, weaves and jump sessioning. This would be simple and would not require too much extra sessioning. If you have too much extra sessioning, people will not be able to afford agility as well as whatever they are doing now. It should be fun, and easy to get hooked on.
2. Dogs could be divided by breed as to height. You could take the standard's average breed height and assign all dogs of that breed to a particular "real" jump height ( 4,8,12,16,20,24,26) OR even simpler, you could just have a small, medium, or large group with breeds assigned by relative height. Although this wouldn't be realistic, it would be better than everyone in the same group, as more people would win and so more people would get involved and be successful.
3.Physical Characteristics of the dogs which would affect running and jumping ( forefront, hind, top, Temperment, feet??) might be calculated by some formula to determine fitness & speed relative to the others of the same size. Coat, head, etc would not count.
4. HANDLING. Handling should be by the owner. Very few agility folks have handlers, and the dogs develop skill by being frequent practice with the same handler (usually owner) . If there is any way that you can keep track of everytime the dog is handled by the owner, perhaps a total of conformation, obedience and agility, and they get better each time as their relationship with the handler is stronger. sessioning a dog could also count toward quality teambuilding time...This should be important.
5. Dogs could enter agility the same day as obedience or conformation. At real shows I consider it a bonus when I can do multiple things at the same show and pay for a hotel once!

Bottom lines-
1. dogs are entered into a predetermined "class" determined by relative breed sizes.
2. There can be Novice A & B Open and Excellent A and B, as in a real show.

Being an agility competitor in RL, I am really excited that agility is being added. There are so many options. Below are some suggestions, based on real life. If you keep it simple, hopefully it will stir some excitement and become as addictive as the real sport.

1. An real agility dog must be able to stay with the handler on the course, stay on the table, come when called if it goes off course. So perhaps right now, a dog that was sessioned in these three things ( heel off lead, sit or down stay, and recall) would have added advantage. Obviously much more training goes into agility, but you could start with this to get things going. Later you could add contacts, weaves and jump sessioning. This would be simple and would not require too much extra sessioning. If you have too much extra sessioning, people will not be able to afford agility as well as whatever they are doing now. It should be fun, and easy to get hooked on.
2. Dogs could be divided by breed as to height. You could take the standard's average breed height and assign all dogs of that breed to a particular "real" jump height ( 4,8,12,16,20,24,26) OR even simpler, you could just have a small, medium, or large group with breeds assigned by relative height. Although this wouldn't be realistic, it would be better than everyone in the same group, as more people would win and so more people would get involved and be successful.
3.Physical Characteristics of the dogs which would affect running and jumping ( forefront, hind, top, Temperment, feet??) might be calculated by some formula to determine fitness & speed relative to the others of the same size. Coat, head, etc would not count.
4. HANDLING. Handling should be by the owner. Very few agility folks have handlers, and the dogs develop skill by being frequent practice with the same handler (usually owner) . If there is any way that you can keep track of everytime the dog is handled by the owner, perhaps a total of conformation, obedience and agility, and they get better each time as their relationship with the handler is stronger. sessioning a dog could also count toward quality teambuilding time...This should be important.
5. Dogs could enter agility the same day as obedience or conformation. At real shows I consider it a bonus when I can do multiple things at the same show and pay for a hotel once!

Bottom lines-
1. dogs are entered into a predetermined "class" determined by relative breed sizes.
2. There can be Novice A & B Open and Excellent A and B, as in a real show. Novice A would require no sessioning to enter. It would be to get people involved. Novice B would require minimal sessioning. Open would require a novice title ( 3 qualifying scores) Excellent would require an open title and Excellent B would require an Excellent title.
3. You would have to have formulas for calculating the success of the dogs. I would suggest this being some algorithm of: fitness of dog( from selected conformation ratings), training of dog ( from selected obedience sessions or added agility sessions) and handler bonding ( based on how much the dog has been sessioned, trained, handled and shown by the handler)(it would be possible, but not necessary to add a factor regarding the success of the breed in real life in agility- ie border collies might have an advantage over English bull dogs...)
4. The dogs in each class would be ranked according to your algorithm.
A certain percentage of dogs that met the minimum requirements for that class would qualify each time.This % should be relatively high.

Titles would be awarded as in AKC according to qualifying runs, etc.

I don't really care how it is done as long as it is easily accessible, especially as you get it going, so that many folks get involved. That is what will make it fun.
Good luck! This is exciting!

Glad to have agility here on SD now

I love agility in RL with my dogs, so I'm sure I'll love it here lol

There SHOULD be a few more obstacles tho, such as the dog walk, tire, table, hoop, etc.

I am estatic that agility is being added. In real life, I love training dogs to my enjoyed casual obedience ( not to the mark level) I also find obedience as it's handled here isn't promoting interest as it just happens, but if agility was initiated with training it would be major awesome.

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posted by Riverlynn
I wonder if there would be a way to incorporate the handler/dog relationship...or would that be too complicated?


~Riverlynn

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I would love to see this!

i going to train my dogs can you give me some ideas thanks

Some way to train the dogs for agility.