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Author Topic : Winning dogs?
 Mypuppydoesagility
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9/2/2019 7:29:38 AM reply with quote send message to Mypuppydoesagility Object to Post   

I'm a bit confused. I'm noticing in a couple of breeds that the dogs with the highest SOP, even when the traits are the same or higher, aren't winning over dogs with lower SOPs? I decided to look to see which dogs are more closely resembling breed standard, but they usually have the same traits (9.9 head, 9.9 temperament) etc, and the traits that are less important are higher than the winning dogs, but they simply don't do as well? Even when no handlers are being used. I'm very confused. If the winning dogs were higher in the traits more strongly preferred for the breed it would make sense, but they're not. Anyone who can lend some insight?
 Comet Poodles
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9/2/2019 9:05:07 AM reply with quote send message to Comet Poodles Object to Post

This might not be helpful but there are numbers after the traits that we can't see. So, both dogs might have ostensibly have a 9.6 gait but one as well actually has a 9.69. This is probably more apparent in breeds that are at 100 or close to.

This happens all the time with my dogs. My highest SOP right now is 96 but consistently loses to lower SOP dogs. A combination of judge preferences and dogs closer to the breed scale of points is the reason for this.

This was one of the reasons Jeff was hesitant to implement SOP into the game as it is not a be all end all to the dog (thanks anyway, Shybade, it's a great tool, nonetheless).
 Comet Poodles
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9/2/2019 9:26:13 AM reply with quote send message to Comet Poodles Object to Post

this post has been edited 1 time(s)

I'll use my own dogs for example.

Here is my highest SOP: showdog.com/dog.aspx?id=16900558
96.1, strong where he needs to be but in terms of my breed's scale of points, his show record matches that he is not as close to "breed standard" as he should be despite his high SOP (eg, low TNB, lower coat).

Embarrassingly enough for him, his current serious competitor is a dog with a 95.65 SOP! haha
showdog.com/dog.aspx?id=16944600

On the flip side, my current "star" is 95.85, consistent showman and breeder as well -- and he has an 8.9 in his genetic quality: showdog.com/dog.aspx?id=16875734
He is much closer to the standard with a lower SOP.

I wish I had a higher SOP breed to look at the effects of this because it's easier to see with lower. But sometimes, it's all in those hiddens decimals which makes the game closer to reality in some respects, which I have always enjoyed happy :)

I guess the tl;dr version is: focus on individual traits; don't get hung up on SOP as it is a user created tool; there are decimals we cannot see (the game is designed that way); as you get into higher SOP breeds, this gets more difficult to do, and in more competitive breeds, looking at judges preferences be more important. Just like real life: judge against the standard, not against individual dogs.

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Last edited by Comet Poodles on 9/2/2019 10:34:08 AM
 BeauNoir
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9/2/2019 12:29:23 PM reply with quote send message to BeauNoir Object to Post

I also struggle with this. In Amstaffs I have produced many top SOP dogs (99.75) and my other dogs are all at the current ‘common’ SOP (99.70), but I will almost always lose to other users when I compete against them. The traits are typically identical, as far as what we can see. I’ve started crossing out to some dogs from users who are very successful, but I’m also trying to maintain my colour lines. I’ll have to take a closer look at traits.
 Emily.Rose
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9/2/2019 1:51:48 PM reply with quote send message to Emily.Rose Object to Post

this post has been edited 1 time(s)

My cane corso line on here does pretty decent in shows with a lot of group placings and BISs. However, my top SOP is almost always a low placer in shows. My Neapolitan Mastiff line is total crap when it comes to shows. Never any group placings or anything. They are "competitive" SOP though and on par with the others in the breed. I have found that when I breed two dogs that do well in shows, generally their offspring will as well.
When you enter shows, each judge has a preference as well. Some prefer handlers, and other do not. Some like certain breeds, and other have no preference. Some also refer certain genders along with various other things.

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Last edited by Emily.Rose on 9/2/2019 1:52:37 PM
 Marquetry
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9/2/2019 5:36:20 PM reply with quote send message to Marquetry Object to Post

I also think that some of the better/more experienced players just have greater knowledge of the intricacies of the game. I don't have time to try to figure that stuff out, and I'm OK with it happy :)
 Duke Kennel
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9/4/2019 12:16:27 PM reply with quote send message to Duke Kennel Object to Post

quote
posted by Marquetry
I also think that some of the better/more experienced players just have greater knowledge of the intricacies of the game. I don't have time to try to figure that stuff out, and I'm OK with it happy :)
Agreed LOL. There's some players who keep spreadsheets of dogs, judges, breedings. Others who seem to just "get it" and know exactly what will get them xyz result. I'm with Marquetry - that's way too much effort for me as well. Must be why we both play in the Boxer rings? LOL.

I've definitely noticed with Boxer's that our 99.8 dogs are really starting to sweep. We've also got some good breeders who know their stuff (Marquetry you're one of them) & these dogs are definitely doing well. They're hitting something correct. I honestly don't look much past keeping 0-low COI & trying to put titles on dogs. There's too many hidden numbers & preferences for me to keep up with.
 Dogs of Show
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9/4/2019 6:12:43 PM reply with quote send message to Dogs of Show Object to Post

keep in mind that as well as the different breeds having certain traits that are more important than others judges also have their own idea of what traits are of more importance.

For example Ned Ford
www.showdog.com/shows/judge_info.aspx?judge=Ned%20Ford

He feels forquater is very important and head is of low importance. so you could find a overall lower quality dog with a very good forquater could win under him over a overall better quality dog with a lower forquater even in a breed where forquater is not on of the more important traits for the breed.
 Pasquel
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9/4/2019 6:37:16 PM reply with quote send message to Pasquel Object to Post

As stated above we can not see all of the numbers behind the trait. This is what I believe can give that average looking dog by SOP that extra that makes it a showdog. Early on in my playing I had a GSD bitch Barbary Coast Zephyr. She wasn’t really special but I finished her and then she started picking up breed wins and above. Surprised me. I would come home from work and check out her wins and many a day I would be smiling as I imagined a little GSD bitch out there showing her heart out. Currently in my main kennel I just show and watch who “wants” to be the special and they go on from there. As a result I currently have a dam line that make all time top dog list
And pass on the show “it” to even their lesser offspring. So it is something you can breed for.

Now a hint since I know we compete in a breed. In RL you would be feeding the best food, training, exercising and grooming your special. While dogs can win on pet house for show and fully sessioned,but never sessioned after. I firmly believe staying on top food and sessioning regularly if not everyday adds an edge too. I can’t prove it but over the years it is part of my program for the dogs I special on showdog. It won’t make a bad dog win but it helps the good ones happy :)
 Pasquel
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9/4/2019 6:48:57 PM reply with quote send message to Pasquel Object to Post

quote
posted by Pasquel
As stated above we can not see all of the numbers behind the trait. This is what I believe can give that average looking dog by SOP that extra that makes it a showdog. Early on in my playing I had a GSD bitch Barbary Coast Xanadu She wasn’t really special but I finished her and then she started picking up breed wins and above. Surprised me. I would come home from work and check out her wins and many a day I would be smiling as I imagined a little GSD bitch out there showing her heart out. Currently in my main kennel I just show and watch who “wants” to be the special and they go on from there. As a result I currently have a dam line that make all time top dog list
And pass on the show “it” to even their lesser offspring. So it is something you can breed for.

Now a hint since I know we compete in a breed. In RL you would be feeding the best food, training, exercising and grooming your special. While dogs can win on pet house for show and fully sessioned,but never sessioned after. I firmly believe staying on top food and sessioning regularly if not everyday adds an edge too. I can’t prove it but over the years it is part of my program for the dogs I special on showdog. It won’t make a bad dog win but it helps the good ones happy :)

 Pasquel
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9/4/2019 6:50:09 PM reply with quote send message to Pasquel Object to Post

quote
posted by Pasquel
As stated above we can not see all of the numbers behind the trait. This is what I believe can give that average looking dog by SOP that extra that makes it a showdog. Early on in my playing I had a GSD bitch Barbary Coast Xanadu. She wasn’t really special but I finished her and then she started picking up breed wins and above. Surprised me. I would come home from work and check out her wins and many a day I would be smiling as I imagined a little GSD bitch out there showing her heart out. Currently in my main kennel I just show and watch who “wants” to be the special and they go on from there. As a result I currently have a dam line that make all time top dog list
And pass on the show “it” to even their lesser offspring. So it is something you can breed for.

Now a hint since I know we compete in a breed. In RL you would be feeding the best food, training, exercising and grooming your special. While dogs can win on pet house for show and fully sessioned,but never sessioned after. I firmly believe staying on top food and sessioning regularly if not everyday adds an edge too. I can’t prove it but over the years it is part of my program for the dogs I special on showdog. It won’t make a bad dog win but it helps the good ones happy :)

 Pasquel
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9/4/2019 6:54:16 PM reply with quote send message to Pasquel Object to Post

Sorry I tried to correct name and it posted more than once
 Emily.Rose
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9/5/2019 5:05:48 PM reply with quote send message to Emily.Rose Object to Post

quote
posted by Pasquel
... I firmly believe staying on top food and sessioning regularly if not everyday adds an edge too. I can’t prove it but over the years it is part of my program for the dogs I special on showdog. It won’t make a bad dog win but it helps the good ones happy :)
I forget which breeder, but it is a breeder of some Afghan Hound or Borzoi or other sight hound, but they say the same thing. So there is probably some truth to it.
 Mypuppydoesagility
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9/7/2019 4:11:27 PM reply with quote send message to Mypuppydoesagility Object to Post

I'll have to give some of these a go. I hadn't thought of seasoning in addition or feeding differently. I took some time off and so things have definitely changed over the years and I lost some of my learned skills from years back. Thanks guys!
 Tarot
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9/7/2019 7:56:06 PM reply with quote send message to Tarot Object to Post

I always keep my actively showing dogs on the highest custom diet and session them fully every day in all my kennels. I don't know if it helps, but I figure it can't hurt!
 BarStar
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9/7/2019 8:06:57 PM reply with quote send message to BarStar Object to Post

quote
posted by Duke Kennel
quote
posted by Marquetry
I also think that some of the better/more experienced players just have greater knowledge of the intricacies of the game. I don't have time to try to figure that stuff out, and I'm OK with it happy :)
Agreed LOL. There's some players who keep spreadsheets of dogs, judges, breedings. Others who seem to just "get it" and know exactly what will get them xyz result.

Duke Kennel,

This one made me chuckle a little. I think I do alright in the game. I tried using one of those spreadsheets back in the day. It was too much work. lol

I just do my thing and go with flow of the game. Win some and lose some.

Will
 Comet Poodles
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9/7/2019 9:22:43 PM reply with quote send message to Comet Poodles Object to Post

13 years, several breeds... might be anecdotal but I have never seen a difference with sessioning beyond 20s or high custom rations. If it makes you feel better about your top winners, alright, but the game is more nuanced than two obvious solutions to keep winners winning.
 Pasquel
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9/9/2019 11:22:45 AM reply with quote send message to Pasquel Object to Post

Comet Poodles yes I agree it is more than just feeding and seasoning as I said it won’t make a bad dog win but I’ve done it since my early days in my first Kennel back in 2005 and I’ve played with it enough to think it may have some results. I have bought dogs in past that weren’t winning against mine that were at full session And on pet house for showdog and switched food and sessioned and seen them take off. Why? I can only say the change up in food and session unless Kennel prestige has something to do with it but I highly doubt that.
 Duke Kennel
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9/9/2019 1:42:50 PM reply with quote send message to Duke Kennel Object to Post

quote
posted by BarStar
quote
posted by Duke Kennel
quote
posted by Marquetry
I also think that some of the better/more experienced players just have greater knowledge of the intricacies of the game. I don't have time to try to figure that stuff out, and I'm OK with it happy :)
Agreed LOL. There's some players who keep spreadsheets of dogs, judges, breedings. Others who seem to just "get it" and know exactly what will get them xyz result.

Duke Kennel,

This one made me chuckle a little. I think I do alright in the game. I tried using one of those spreadsheets back in the day. It was too much work. lol

I just do my thing and go with flow of the game. Win some and lose some.

Will

So much work LOL! I'd say you definitely do more than alright wink ;) my best Goldens always came from your kennel.

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Did you know?
A specialty show is a dog show which reviews a single breed, unlike other dog shows, particularly conformation shows, which are generally referred to as "all-breed" because they are open to all breeds recognized by the sponsoring kennel club.